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Mark 75 Super Convertible
Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2014
Posts: 199
Location: Cleveland/Fort Myers Beach FL.
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 Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:00 pm Post subject: Napoleon hat question |
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| As is common, the ends of the Napoleon hat on my 75 Super convertible are rusted. Mine are a little worse than Jeremy G's project car. Anyone who follows his thread knows he is an amazing craftsman, and a wizard with a welder. Since I don't possess his skills, I'm wondering why I don't recall seeing people just replace the whole panel, vs patching it like he did. I need to replace part of the lower plate under it anyway (again like Jeremy did). Wolfsburg West sells the hat, and I recall that he bought his from somewhere else, and was underwhelmed with the quality. Anyone with thoughts or experience care to comment? If the WW part fits correctly I'd rather spend the time cutting the millions of spot welds and just replace the part-or am I missing something? In the end I'd rather spend a few more dollars to get a quality part that fits, even if it takes more time. I'd appreciate any comments! Thanks, Mark. |
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Dodgy
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 517
Location: Leicester, UK
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VW_Jimbo 
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9967
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Napoleon hat question |
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Most aftermarket panels SUCK! You are not going to get around that. They all (even the good ones) need massaging, reshaping, and straight up hammer time!
As Dodgy wrote, this part is a critical part, as in strength and alignment. If you weld this in just a little bit off, stuff will not line up. You need to be good with a tape measure, be able to weld and be an out of the box thinker.
The last Nap HatIdid, was an aftermarket one. I took the original pan, and built a jig to hold everything in alignment. Especially the ends of the hat. With the pan sitting on top of the jig, I tack welded the jig in place, so it did not move. Removed the top section of the hat by drilling out spot welds and grinding out the bead welds. A little chisel work and “ POP”! On with the new one. Lined it up based on the jig and my tape measure. A few tack welds. Then back onto the car it went, for a test fit. It was a good fit. Welded what Icould with the body bolted on, then back off the body came.
Built another jig for the bottom plate. More of a frame with points touching major changes in the panel, for reference. Drilled out the remaining spot welds, and cut out the bead weld. Then slowly chiseled off the panel. With the panel loose, this section is a little flimsy, it can move, so be sure you do not hit it or move it too much. You got the jig points, so that’s good. Just be aware that it gets a little flimsy. Take the new panel and test fit it. I am positive a little trimming will be required. Better too big, than too small. If you need to trim it, I suggest small well thought out cuts. Maybe 1/16th at a time. Then recheck, remark, cut, install, align, check, mark, remove, cut, reinstall, adjust, mark, remove, trim, reinstall.............(Several hours later...)
Now, with it fitting perfect, drill out the flanges for plug welds every 1 inch and get to welding!
The tricky part is the fuel line, be sure to not tweak it during the process. It is not welded into place. But it does have a clamp around it, that had a rubber insulator sandwiched between itself and the tube.
Remember to .....Measure, measure, measure. Then tack weld. Then check, and double check. Make adjustments, then grind off old tack welds and realign. Then tack weld. Then check. Check it again. ........then again. Go have lunch, think about it all, work back through it in your mind. Then go out, make adjustments and retract it all. Go have dinner, get a good night sleep. Get out in the garage and, if everything is good still, weld it up, grind those down, prime and paint, reinstall the body!
Done! Oh, go get an alignment or do it yourself!
Good luck!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!  |
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miller0358
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2007
Posts: 1200
Location: northford,ct
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Napoleon hat question |
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| Exactly like Jimbo says |
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Mark 75 Super Convertible
Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2014
Posts: 199
Location: Cleveland/Fort Myers Beach FL.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Napoleon hat question |
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| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
Most aftermarket panels SUCK! You are not going to get around that. They all (even the good ones) need massaging, reshaping, and straight up hammer time!
As Dodgy wrote, this part is a critical part, as in strength and alignment. If you weld this in just a little bit off, stuff will not line up. You need to be good with a tape measure, be able to weld and be an out of the box thinker.
The last Nap HatIdid, was an aftermarket one. I took the original pan, and built a jig to hold everything in alignment. Especially the ends of the hat. With the pan sitting on top of the jig, I tack welded the jig in place, so it did not move. Removed the top section of the hat by drilling out spot welds and grinding out the bead welds. A little chisel work and “ POP”! On with the new one. Lined it up based on the jig and my tape measure. A few tack welds. Then back onto the car it went, for a test fit. It was a good fit. Welded what Icould with the body bolted on, then back off the body came.
Built another jig for the bottom plate. More of a frame with points touching major changes in the panel, for reference. Drilled out the remaining spot welds, and cut out the bead weld. Then slowly chiseled off the panel. With the panel loose, this section is a little flimsy, it can move, so be sure you do not hit it or move it too much. You got the jig points, so that’s good. Just be aware that it gets a little flimsy. Take the new panel and test fit it. I am positive a little trimming will be required. Better too big, than too small. If you need to trim it, I suggest small well thought out cuts. Maybe 1/16th at a time. Then recheck, remark, cut, install, align, check, mark, remove, cut, reinstall, adjust, mark, remove, trim, reinstall.............(Several hours later...)
Now, with it fitting perfect, drill out the flanges for plug welds every 1 inch and get to welding!
The tricky part is the fuel line, be sure to not tweak it during the process. It is not welded into place. But it does have a clamp around it, that had a rubber insulator sandwiched between itself and the tube.
Remember to .....Measure, measure, measure. Then tack weld. Then check, and double check. Make adjustments, then grind off old tack welds and realign. Then tack weld. Then check. Check it again. ........then again. Go have lunch, think about it all, work back through it in your mind. Then go out, make adjustments and retract it all. Go have dinner, get a good night sleep. Get out in the garage and, if everything is good still, weld it up, grind those down, prime and paint, reinstall the body!
Done! Oh, go get an alignment or do it yourself!
Good luck! |
I like your approach, and I think I may have a short cut, but following your idea. I have the body of my convertible suspended via ceiling mounted chain hoists, so moving it up and down is really easy for me. I'm thinking if I took off the entire hat, just put a few tacks on the new one, and dropped the body over it to see if it fits, that would show me right away how well the hat is fitting. What do you think? |
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9967
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Napoleon hat question |
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| Mark 75 Super Convertible wrote: |
| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
Most aftermarket panels SUCK! You are not going to get around that. They all (even the good ones) need massaging, reshaping, and straight up hammer time!
As Dodgy wrote, this part is a critical part, as in strength and alignment. If you weld this in just a little bit off, stuff will not line up. You need to be good with a tape measure, be able to weld and be an out of the box thinker.
The last Nap HatIdid, was an aftermarket one. I took the original pan, and built a jig to hold everything in alignment. Especially the ends of the hat. With the pan sitting on top of the jig, I tack welded the jig in place, so it did not move. Removed the top section of the hat by drilling out spot welds and grinding out the bead welds. A little chisel work and “ POP”! On with the new one. Lined it up based on the jig and my tape measure. A few tack welds. Then back onto the car it went, for a test fit. It was a good fit. Welded what Icould with the body bolted on, then back off the body came.
Built another jig for the bottom plate. More of a frame with points touching major changes in the panel, for reference. Drilled out the remaining spot welds, and cut out the bead weld. Then slowly chiseled off the panel. With the panel loose, this section is a little flimsy, it can move, so be sure you do not hit it or move it too much. You got the jig points, so that’s good. Just be aware that it gets a little flimsy. Take the new panel and test fit it. I am positive a little trimming will be required. Better too big, than too small. If you need to trim it, I suggest small well thought out cuts. Maybe 1/16th at a time. Then recheck, remark, cut, install, align, check, mark, remove, cut, reinstall, adjust, mark, remove, trim, reinstall.............(Several hours later...)
Now, with it fitting perfect, drill out the flanges for plug welds every 1 inch and get to welding!
The tricky part is the fuel line, be sure to not tweak it during the process. It is not welded into place. But it does have a clamp around it, that had a rubber insulator sandwiched between itself and the tube.
Remember to .....Measure, measure, measure. Then tack weld. Then check, and double check. Make adjustments, then grind off old tack welds and realign. Then tack weld. Then check. Check it again. ........then again. Go have lunch, think about it all, work back through it in your mind. Then go out, make adjustments and retract it all. Go have dinner, get a good night sleep. Get out in the garage and, if everything is good still, weld it up, grind those down, prime and paint, reinstall the body!
Done! Oh, go get an alignment or do it yourself!
Good luck! |
I like your approach, and I think I may have a short cut, but following your idea. I have the body of my convertible suspended via ceiling mounted chain hoists, so moving it up and down is really easy for me. I'm thinking if I took off the entire hat, just put a few tacks on the new one, and dropped the body over it to see if it fits, that would show me right away how well the hat is fitting. What do you think? |
Funny! You sound like one of my kids asking if their way is better!
I think you need to prove if an unproven method works. I already know the answer. Read my signature line!
I have seen it completed wrong a few times and had to fix it. I have installed it wrong myself ONCE, and had to undo and then reset the jigs. Then get back to welding and checking. It is no fun to do it twice! Plus, it is WAY EASIER to jig it up with the old one in place, then remove and install. Hard to jig it up with the old piece removed.
Up to you how you do it.
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Mark 75 Super Convertible
Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2014
Posts: 199
Location: Cleveland/Fort Myers Beach FL.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Napoleon hat question |
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| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
| Mark 75 Super Convertible wrote: |
| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
Most aftermarket panels SUCK! You are not going to get around that. They all (even the good ones) need massaging, reshaping, and straight up hammer time!
As Dodgy wrote, this part is a critical part, as in strength and alignment. If you weld this in just a little bit off, stuff will not line up. You need to be good with a tape measure, be able to weld and be an out of the box thinker.
The last Nap HatIdid, was an aftermarket one. I took the original pan, and built a jig to hold everything in alignment. Especially the ends of the hat. With the pan sitting on top of the jig, I tack welded the jig in place, so it did not move. Removed the top section of the hat by drilling out spot welds and grinding out the bead welds. A little chisel work and “ POP”! On with the new one. Lined it up based on the jig and my tape measure. A few tack welds. Then back onto the car it went, for a test fit. It was a good fit. Welded what Icould with the body bolted on, then back off the body came.
Built another jig for the bottom plate. More of a frame with points touching major changes in the panel, for reference. Drilled out the remaining spot welds, and cut out the bead weld. Then slowly chiseled off the panel. With the panel loose, this section is a little flimsy, it can move, so be sure you do not hit it or move it too much. You got the jig points, so that’s good. Just be aware that it gets a little flimsy. Take the new panel and test fit it. I am positive a little trimming will be required. Better too big, than too small. If you need to trim it, I suggest small well thought out cuts. Maybe 1/16th at a time. Then recheck, remark, cut, install, align, check, mark, remove, cut, reinstall, adjust, mark, remove, trim, reinstall.............(Several hours later...)
Now, with it fitting perfect, drill out the flanges for plug welds every 1 inch and get to welding!
The tricky part is the fuel line, be sure to not tweak it during the process. It is not welded into place. But it does have a clamp around it, that had a rubber insulator sandwiched between itself and the tube.
Remember to .....Measure, measure, measure. Then tack weld. Then check, and double check. Make adjustments, then grind off old tack welds and realign. Then tack weld. Then check. Check it again. ........then again. Go have lunch, think about it all, work back through it in your mind. Then go out, make adjustments and retract it all. Go have dinner, get a good night sleep. Get out in the garage and, if everything is good still, weld it up, grind those down, prime and paint, reinstall the body!
Done! Oh, go get an alignment or do it yourself!
Good luck! |
I like your approach, and I think I may have a short cut, but following your idea. I have the body of my convertible suspended via ceiling mounted chain hoists, so moving it up and down is really easy for me. I'm thinking if I took off the entire hat, just put a few tacks on the new one, and dropped the body over it to see if it fits, that would show me right away how well the hat is fitting. What do you think? |
Funny! You sound like one of my kids asking if their way is better!
I think you need to prove if an unproven method works. I already know the answer. Read my signature line!
I have seen it completed wrong a few times and had to fix it. I have installed it wrong myself ONCE, and had to undo and then reset the jigs. Then get back to welding and checking. It is no fun to do it twice! Plus, it is WAY EASIER to jig it up with the old one in place, then remove and install. Hard to jig it up with the old piece removed.
Up to you how you do it. |
I don't appreciate being compared to a child. I was merely asking if there might be another way to approach this problem other than 'your way'. No need to be condescending-I thought the whole purpose of this site was to share ideas and solutions. |
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beetlenut
Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2009
Posts: 2983
Location: RI
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Napoleon hat question |
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I had similar nap hat issues and chose to replace the whole nap hat bottom piece. I got one of good quality and thickness from M&T. Leaving the top part of the nap hat in place eliminates a lot of fitment issues. Pics in my gallery.
_________________
scrapyards are for quitters
---------------------------------------
| Wetstuff wrote: |
| ... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again. |
- Words to live by right there!
My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104 |
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viiking
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 2668
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Napoleon hat question |
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| Mark 75 Super Convertible wrote: |
| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
| Mark 75 Super Convertible wrote: |
| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
Most aftermarket panels SUCK! You are not going to get around that. They all (even the good ones) need massaging, reshaping, and straight up hammer time!
As Dodgy wrote, this part is a critical part, as in strength and alignment. If you weld this in just a little bit off, stuff will not line up. You need to be good with a tape measure, be able to weld and be an out of the box thinker.
The last Nap HatIdid, was an aftermarket one. I took the original pan, and built a jig to hold everything in alignment. Especially the ends of the hat. With the pan sitting on top of the jig, I tack welded the jig in place, so it did not move. Removed the top section of the hat by drilling out spot welds and grinding out the bead welds. A little chisel work and “ POP”! On with the new one. Lined it up based on the jig and my tape measure. A few tack welds. Then back onto the car it went, for a test fit. It was a good fit. Welded what Icould with the body bolted on, then back off the body came.
Built another jig for the bottom plate. More of a frame with points touching major changes in the panel, for reference. Drilled out the remaining spot welds, and cut out the bead weld. Then slowly chiseled off the panel. With the panel loose, this section is a little flimsy, it can move, so be sure you do not hit it or move it too much. You got the jig points, so that’s good. Just be aware that it gets a little flimsy. Take the new panel and test fit it. I am positive a little trimming will be required. Better too big, than too small. If you need to trim it, I suggest small well thought out cuts. Maybe 1/16th at a time. Then recheck, remark, cut, install, align, check, mark, remove, cut, reinstall, adjust, mark, remove, trim, reinstall.............(Several hours later...)
Now, with it fitting perfect, drill out the flanges for plug welds every 1 inch and get to welding!
The tricky part is the fuel line, be sure to not tweak it during the process. It is not welded into place. But it does have a clamp around it, that had a rubber insulator sandwiched between itself and the tube.
Remember to .....Measure, measure, measure. Then tack weld. Then check, and double check. Make adjustments, then grind off old tack welds and realign. Then tack weld. Then check. Check it again. ........then again. Go have lunch, think about it all, work back through it in your mind. Then go out, make adjustments and retract it all. Go have dinner, get a good night sleep. Get out in the garage and, if everything is good still, weld it up, grind those down, prime and paint, reinstall the body!
Done! Oh, go get an alignment or do it yourself!
Good luck! |
I like your approach, and I think I may have a short cut, but following your idea. I have the body of my convertible suspended via ceiling mounted chain hoists, so moving it up and down is really easy for me. I'm thinking if I took off the entire hat, just put a few tacks on the new one, and dropped the body over it to see if it fits, that would show me right away how well the hat is fitting. What do you think? |
Funny! You sound like one of my kids asking if their way is better!
I think you need to prove if an unproven method works. I already know the answer. Read my signature line!
I have seen it completed wrong a few times and had to fix it. I have installed it wrong myself ONCE, and had to undo and then reset the jigs. Then get back to welding and checking. It is no fun to do it twice! Plus, it is WAY EASIER to jig it up with the old one in place, then remove and install. Hard to jig it up with the old piece removed.
Up to you how you do it. |
I don't appreciate being compared to a child. I was merely asking if there might be another way to approach this problem other than 'your way'. No need to be condescending-I thought the whole purpose of this site was to share ideas and solutions. |
I tell my 40 year old children...
"Never ask a question that you are not willing to get the answer that you don't want to hear..."
_________________
1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9967
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Napoleon hat question |
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Not trying to be condescending. Sorry it came off like that.
Good luck with the car!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
|
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