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finster
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 Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:41 am Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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another site has slightly different numbers... 
http://www.bnhof.de/~ho1253/!%20VW%20HTML/Texte/Ge...201985.PDF
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finster
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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pastelgreen - as to what became of the 'corner stone' 803 vert...that's the unsolved mystery.
scrapped? wrecked? rusting away in a central european barn?
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Martin Southwell
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| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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| finster wrote: |
the first Karmann prototype(s) were made in late 46 or early 47, according to Seume, and this fits with the story of them being given the 10,000th car to work with (oct 46). he also says that Karmann had approached vw earlier but had been turned down due to the restrictions preventing german citizens purchasing new vws. however, despite making 2 prototypes the project was shelved due to the shortage of materials and it was only as a result of financial reforms in 48 that Karmann were able to proceed.
Sueme also mentions Hirst and Radclyffe's visit to the 1947 paris motor show (october) where they were impressed by the skoda.
but from what you say am I correct in understanding that the Karmann car without trim is the car without rear cooling slots and that the second Karmann is the black-over-white car pictured above (which has been described as 'hastily built')? |
Does anybody know what Keith Seume is up to these days? We do know each other of old, but I haven't seen him for a long time. |
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finster
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:16 am Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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he's on facebook...is he still involved with ultravw mag?
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peter schepens
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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Sueme also mentions Hirst and Radclyffe's visit to the 1947 paris motor show (october) where they were impressed by the skoda.
but from what you say am I correct in understanding that the Karmann car without trim is the car without rear cooling slots and that the second Karmann is the black-over-white car pictured above (which has been described as 'hastily bu
That should be the 1948 paris salon.. not 47.
And indeed. Keith is still alive and kicking on FB.
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mandraks
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| Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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| peter schepens wrote: |
Sueme also mentions Hirst and Radclyffe's visit to the 1947 paris motor show (october) where they were impressed by the skoda.
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this is one cool looking car
Link
as is this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_Rapid_(19...1940_2.JPG
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Uli
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'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel |
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finster
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| Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:03 am Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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| peter schepens wrote: |
Sorry for the double link.
About Karmann, the first Karmann was finished early june, second one a few days later. First one had no trim, second one had trim but the sema pocket sat to high so they had to cut it in for 5 mm. The front windowframe was total flat. nr 3 had the correct sema pocket and trim and a lot of things were changed. That is what I know on early converts.. .and a bit more but not that special to mention. |
Seume says the first car had winding windows only in the doors, external hood hinges and no rear screen which suggests this car -
he says the second had winding rear quarter windows and concealed hinges...
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finster
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:05 am Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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mandraks - I think the skoda saloon/cabrio that Hirst saw would be this 'tudor' model
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mandraks
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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| finster wrote: |
mandraks - I think the skoda saloon/cabrio that Hirst saw would be this 'tudor' model
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maybe so, but i do not like it all 
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finster
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:28 am Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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just found this photo of one of the karmann prototypes in a book
it's the front 3/4 view of this car - note bumper mounted horns - but it's not clear whether the rear quarter windows slotted in or wound up/down. looks like sills are lacking strengthening channels
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peter schepens
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:06 am Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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Thanks Finister, That first pict I have never seen before.. the lower, no chassis body is known..
In what book that pict was found?
So far I found this in a book "Die Edel Käfer" from Bernd Wiersch:
Dr Wiersch wrote:
"production of Karmann's seater convertible in 1949
"3 in august, "
"40 in sep,"
"70 okt,"
"112 nov and "
"133 in dec".
"In total it is 364 cars"
But the actual sum here is 358 - so there are 6 missing- That could be 3 proto's, and 1 in june, 2 in july but in the book it is not mentioned.
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finster
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:51 am Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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that photo is from 'deutsche automarken von a-z' by kubisch
in malcolm bobbitt's vw beetle cabriolet book he has the following production figures
1948 3
1949 364
1950 2695
1951 3938
so would the 3 cars be made up of:- the external hood hinge car, the car in the latest photo and the two tone car without cooling grilles?
wiersch does seem to make a mistake in titling photos of a ringel car as a karmann prototype...
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finster
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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just looking at this photo, it appears to be the 'external hood hinge' karmann car! on a 'hunting trip'!
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finster
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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have found an article on berryman in an old safer motoring issue (1965) and have ordered a copy via ebay. here's a teaser until it arrives
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peter schepens
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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| finster wrote: |
have found an article on berryman in an old safer motoring issue (1965) and have ordered a copy via ebay. here's a teaser until it arrives
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left page is indeed the sturmstangen hood frame. Exterior frame, no side window. Sema in the front wing.. on the right side.. different convertible , probably a Ringel made one. There is a pict of that one taken with in the background a kubel and a Fire truck, probably taken in Wolfsburg. Have to search for it.. Thanks again Finister.. What mag is that? sorry to ask but whould like a nice scan of the picts.
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finster
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Early Convertibles after WW2 |
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well the magazine article on wing/co Berryman is not very enlightening! in his defence I shall say that he was 70 and convalescing after a serious illness.
here is frau Gans beside the karmann prototype with the 'pram iron' hood
the article makes a big thing of this being a luxury, one-off two seater (!) with frau Gans at the wheel - even though the top of the rear seat is visible! this is now understood to be a car converted by Ringel at VW.
this is the rather short piece of text on the cabrios
I assume the 'other firm' in cologne was hebmuller...
so it is easy to see how the facts get muddled even when the source seems like it should be good intel. 
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peter schepens
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Early Convertibles after WW2 |
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Papler was a Koln based bodywork. There is a lot of mist spreaded in the past. First time I read they ordered 100 convertibles... Where are they? 
Hebmuller was situated in Wulfrath Barmen not far from Koln. Is also possible but doubt it as only in second half of 48 Gottfried Schultz put Hebmuller staff in contact with VW staff..
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finster
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Early Convertibles after WW2 |
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agreed peter - but is that english type mist or the german? I don't mind walking in the former but not the latter 
surely he can't mean papler, I thought they only developed a police cabrio.
both copping and seume state that the three '48 hebmuller prototypes were made using earlier cars. copping says '46 and earlier. is this true, if so why was this?
also, you ask where are the 100 karmann cars? do we know of any surviving karmann cabrios of the 25 pre-production test batch?
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peter schepens
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Early Convertibles after WW2 |
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| finster wrote: |
both copping and seume state that the three '48 hebmuller prototypes were made using earlier cars. copping says '46 and earlier. is this true, if so why was this?
also, you ask where are the 100 karmann cars? do we know of any surviving karmann cabrios of the 25 pre-production test batch? |
Heb proto's.. a mistery . When are they made.?. theb black one is for sure the copy or the radclyffe body restored after the accident, required over the contact with Gottfried Schultz at VW. That car was later modified with new roof and new doorwindow and frames, bumpers and seen in the garden at Gottfried Schultz. The grey proto, only one pict with the pedal car heb strapped on it??? Who knows where it is or when it was made... The other so called prototype has different engine cover, seen with a licence plate from Baden Wurttemberg( black Forrest) with a very low roof line.
About the vorserie karmann's.. So far none are found or identified. There is a very early Karmann known recently in restauration It has details, never seen on the known early Karmann's in the registry. Still working on the research on that one..
Greetings
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finster
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:37 am Post subject: Re: early convertibles after ww2 |
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| finster wrote: |
just found this photo of one of the karmann prototypes in a book
it's the front 3/4 view of this car - note bumper mounted horns - but it's not clear whether the rear quarter windows slotted in or wound up/down. looks like sills are lacking strengthening channels |
just found another view of this car with the roof up. I think the rear quarter windows were slotted in rather than winding...
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