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Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2023 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

StockNazi wrote:
I've got a few questions about using a Type 1 or Type 3 IRS transmission to build for a split window bus (61-67 tunnel mount unit). This thread seemed like a good place to ask.

No lowering, stock height with reduction boxes.


I've got a few transmissions that I may decide to use as a core to rebuild for this bus.
I have:

Type 3 IRS
Type 1 IRS
Type 3 swing axle

Are any of these units good to use as a base for a stock height bus?


There are many variables to your equation. You need to define what your wanting gear ratio wise with the reduction boxes for your Bus, and what years the Type 1-3 transaxles are from.

The early Bus transaxles had 1-4 ratios of 3.80/2.06/1.22/.82, 4.12 r&p with 1.39 reduction boxes. The later had 3.80/2.06/1.26/.82, 4.37 r&p with a 1.26 reduction box. All of the pre-68 Bus transaxles used thicker coarse tooth gears. The early 4.12 pinion shafts used the securing nut on the end with a keyed 4th, while the later 4.37 ones used a circle clip and a splined 4th.

Your Type 3 transaxles will have 4.12 r&pís, and most commonly 3.80/2.06/1.26/.89 gear sets. The earlier used 1.32 3rds. I havenít taken apart that many type 3 specific transaxles, but all Iíve seen had a 3.80 1st with the coarse tooth 3-4 gear sets. Pretty sure the late ones never got 3.78 1stís, or the fine tooth gears. Early pinion shafts will have a keyed 4th, while later will be splined.

The Type 1 trans is most commonly a 4.12 keyed/splined r&p or a splined 3.88 r&p. The early cases were numbered, but the later 4.12ís had an AH prefix, and the 3.88ís an AT. The other less common ones would have an AV for a 4.12, or an AM for a 4.37. It could have coarse, or fine tooth gears with a 3.80, or 3.78 1st with an .89, or .93 4th.

See what you can find out with the serial numbers from the cores. You can look through the oil filler hole to see if the 3rd gear has coarse, or fine teeth.
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Stocknazi
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

I've got a few questions about using a Type 1 or Type 3 IRS transmission to build for a split window bus (61-67 tunnel mount unit). This thread seemed like a good place to ask.

No lowering, stock height with reduction boxes.


I've got a few transmissions that I may decide to use as a core to rebuild for this bus.
I have:

Type 3 IRS
Type 1 IRS
Type 3 swing axle

Are any of these units good to use as a base for a stock height bus?
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rustybug1990
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

Thank you very much, put just how I can understand it.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

How long is a fish?

Iíd say a transaxle built like shown here could pretty much handle anything you could throw at it if youíre running street radials.

If youíve got slicks and are hitting the water box and doing a burnout at the strip,
Then you might be pushing your luck.

Or if youíre on the throttle bouncing off the rev limiter while airborne in a desert car..
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

So any idea what kind of launching punishment could this handle?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

rustybug1990 wrote:
What kind of power numbers should this be able to handle? I'm not sure what exactly I want to build yet but I know it will be close to 2.0L and turbo charged. Is this something that would be worth my time or should I just but another unit?


It's more to do with the severity of your launches that will break any "built gearbox" as opposed to how much HP you are producing
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

Bump
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

What kind of power numbers should this be able to handle? I'm not sure what exactly I want to build yet but I know it will be close to 2.0L and turbo charged. Is this something that would be worth my time or should I just but another unit?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

Most that use the 15/10 tooth combo gears in a swing axle diff are using two spider gears in an oem housing. If you want a super diff, youíre going to have to find a NLA used/nos one specifically made for the 15/10 tooth gears. All of the modern new commonly available super diffs are made for the more common 17/11 combos, and the 15/10 gears will not mesh properly with 4 spider gears.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:20 am    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

Quick question on the Super Diff.

Can 10T spiders and 15T side gears be used without ant further modifications required?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

Looks like you are going far from the reservation. Laughing Maybe you are one of those who just wakes up one day and be good at transmissions. YOu may want to slowdown cutting stuff. Bernie Bergman did many things to the VW engines. -just saying.

I started out sticking exactly to the Bentley manual when I built my first trans and used that for years -put me thru school. Then somewhere along there, I built many more for others. Since I have had my machines I did more mods required in drags and learned a bit more on what not to do on the parts.

If this is gonna be your trans, so be it - modify as much as you want. But I sure hope you will not do these to customers' trans if you ever decide to do them for money.

But I am truly enjoying myself watching this thread.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

ngobet wrote:
Let's move to end play....

The dark circlip is the 002 version, thinner than the 091. On this picture, you can see that the hub was machined to position it correctly.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The next picture is after removing the circlip, when the hub is push against the front 091 circlip (top). When machining the hub, measure the difference of thickness of the circlip (usually 002 is 1.49mm, 091 is 2.47mm). 4th gear will have around 0.25mm play and 3rd 0.50mm play (see...). You will then machine around 0.80mm off the hub (MEASURE YOURSELF ON YOUR PARTS) to split the endplay between the 2 gears, and both gears will end with 0.37mm.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now all your idler gears are well oiled and have sufficient endplay.

Don't do the handpacking of the needle bearing as suggested by Berg. It brings too much heat in the gear. Look for the early caged needle bearing, there is more room for oil.


my 3rd/4th gear slider has a groove on the "teeth" and I cannot remember which way it came off the shaft. Is there a diagram that shows which way this should be installed please?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 3:27 am    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

YOu people certainly have too much time on your hands. Laughing

I once saw a flywheel w/ several dozens drill holes in it. Maybe improve the performance of pistons by drilling right thru the top of it? Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

benozoval56 wrote:
Clatter wrote:
benozoval56 wrote:
Clatter wrote:
This is a great thread.

Next is for the details of doing all this,
And it'll get long and off-track for sure! Very Happy

Like,
What drill bits are hard enough to drill holes in the hubs?



what size holes am I drilling here please?


ngobet wrote:

Drill 3mm holes in the hub. .




Just have to read the thead.. Wink


have read too many times and still missed it Laughing Laughing


Carbide bits will drill holes in hardened trans parts. Be aware that they aren't cheap, and are somewhat fragile.

A lot of trans parts are surface hardened to a depth of .030"- .040". The gears are softer, inside, but if you're drilling all the way through be careful when hitting the hardened material on the other side. When you break through the surface, if you're too aggressive you'll break the bit. Up here carbide bits are expensive. I've broken 2 1/8" ($20 each) and 1 1/4" bit (over $50- guess how loud I yelled when I broke that 1!). The shift forks weren't especially hard, but thought I'd post that pic to show what's possible...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 4:12 am    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
benozoval56 wrote:
Clatter wrote:
This is a great thread.

Next is for the details of doing all this,
And it'll get long and off-track for sure! Very Happy

Like,
What drill bits are hard enough to drill holes in the hubs?



what size holes am I drilling here please?


ngobet wrote:

Drill 3mm holes in the hub. .


Just have to read the thead.. Wink


have read too many times and still missed it Laughing Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
Checking the Weddle site right now,
They seem to be out of the regular early 3-4 cones:
https://weddleindustries.com/products/8A-CONE/8A-CONE

They do have this cone with the later-style teeth.
Seems an adaptor cone?? Think
https://weddleindustries.com/products/8A-CONE-LATE/8A-CONE-LATE

If you trim down the hub/gear,
could you use this different cone instead of the early cone and thick washer?
This when running a late 4th and late slider..


The early cones have been out of stock for quite some time, and unless Weddle decides to start making them, they are pretty much nla.

I have yet to need to use the later hubs that donít use the washer. Thatís something I would run by Scott. Itís my understanding they are a direct replacement for the early hub with the washer, so I would imagine you still will have excess endplay to take up if using a late splined slider hub. You may need to trial assemble the shaft to find out how much endplay you have. You still need to weld the late style washerless cone for the 113 gears. You could get some shim stock and cut out a small spacer washer to set your endplay to press the hub up against before welding.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

benozoval56 wrote:
Clatter wrote:
This is a great thread.

Next is for the details of doing all this,
And it'll get long and off-track for sure! Very Happy

Like,
What drill bits are hard enough to drill holes in the hubs?

Some 3-4 hubs just drill like butter.
Others are so hard that homeowner drill bits don't stand a chance of even starting.
None of these even had a prayer.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


what size holes am I drilling here please?


ngobet wrote:

Drill 3mm holes in the hub. .


Just have to read the thead.. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:


You can turn the splined hub, and bore the keyed gears to use the splined shaft. You also need a thicker stop washer for the gear hub.

https://weddleindustries.com/sites/weddleindustries.com/files/downloads/8A-CONE-SW105-INST.pdf

Hereís a pic from Jpaullís post where Mcmscott is turning down the hub.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


.


Checking the Weddle site right now,
They seem to be out of the regular early 3-4 cones:
https://weddleindustries.com/products/8A-CONE/8A-CONE

They do have this cone with the later-style teeth.
Seems an adaptor cone?? Think
https://weddleindustries.com/products/8A-CONE-LATE/8A-CONE-LATE

If you trim down the hub/gear,
could you use this different cone instead of the early cone and thick washer?
This when running a late 4th and late slider..
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:39 am    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
This is a great thread.

Next is for the details of doing all this,
And it'll get long and off-track for sure! Very Happy

Like,
What drill bits are hard enough to drill holes in the hubs?

Some 3-4 hubs just drill like butter.
Others are so hard that homeowner drill bits don't stand a chance of even starting.
None of these even had a prayer.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


what size holes am I drilling here please?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts Reply with quote

b-man wrote:
You could consider using a Ď61 -Ď67 Type II 1.22:1 third gear instead of the 1.26:1 to lessen the spread between 3rd and 4th.

VW went from the 1.32/0.89 combo they used in the 1960 buses to the 1.22/0.82 combo in 1961. Might be a lot more useful when you need a slightly taller 3rd gear in certain instances at higher speeds when 4th gear canít be used.



I try to do this any time I use a .89 4th, they are getting hard to find tho
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