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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4858
Location: Harmony, PA
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 Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2023 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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| StockNazi wrote: |
I've got a few questions about using a Type 1 or Type 3 IRS transmission to build for a split window bus (61-67 tunnel mount unit). This thread seemed like a good place to ask.
No lowering, stock height with reduction boxes.
I've got a few transmissions that I may decide to use as a core to rebuild for this bus.
I have:
Type 3 IRS
Type 1 IRS
Type 3 swing axle
Are any of these units good to use as a base for a stock height bus? |
There are many variables to your equation. You need to define what your wanting gear ratio wise with the reduction boxes for your Bus, and what years the Type 1-3 transaxles are from.
The early Bus transaxles had 1-4 ratios of 3.80/2.06/1.22/.82, 4.12 r&p with 1.39 reduction boxes. The later had 3.80/2.06/1.26/.82, 4.37 r&p with a 1.26 reduction box. All of the pre-68 Bus transaxles used thicker coarse tooth gears. The early 4.12 pinion shafts used the securing nut on the end with a keyed 4th, while the later 4.37 ones used a circle clip and a splined 4th.
Your Type 3 transaxles will have 4.12 r&p’s, and most commonly 3.80/2.06/1.26/.89 gear sets. The earlier used 1.32 3rds. I haven’t taken apart that many type 3 specific transaxles, but all I’ve seen had a 3.80 1st with the coarse tooth 3-4 gear sets. Pretty sure the late ones never got 3.78 1st’s, or the fine tooth gears. Early pinion shafts will have a keyed 4th, while later will be splined.
The Type 1 trans is most commonly a 4.12 keyed/splined r&p or a splined 3.88 r&p. The early cases were numbered, but the later 4.12’s had an AH prefix, and the 3.88’s an AT. The other less common ones would have an AV for a 4.12, or an AM for a 4.37. It could have coarse, or fine tooth gears with a 3.80, or 3.78 1st with an .89, or .93 4th.
See what you can find out with the serial numbers from the cores. You can look through the oil filler hole to see if the 3rd gear has coarse, or fine teeth. |
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Stocknazi
Samba Member
Joined: June 18, 2004
Posts: 5083
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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I've got a few questions about using a Type 1 or Type 3 IRS transmission to build for a split window bus (61-67 tunnel mount unit). This thread seemed like a good place to ask.
No lowering, stock height with reduction boxes.
I've got a few transmissions that I may decide to use as a core to rebuild for this bus.
I have:
Type 3 IRS
Type 1 IRS
Type 3 swing axle
Are any of these units good to use as a base for a stock height bus?
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"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God."
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rustybug1990
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2019
Posts: 56
Location: NC
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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| Thank you very much, put just how I can understand it. |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7442
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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How long is a fish?
I’d say a transaxle built like shown here could pretty much handle anything you could throw at it if you’re running street radials.
If you’ve got slicks and are hitting the water box and doing a burnout at the strip,
Then you might be pushing your luck.
Or if you’re on the throttle bouncing off the rev limiter while airborne in a desert car..
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rustybug1990
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2019
Posts: 56
Location: NC
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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| So any idea what kind of launching punishment could this handle? |
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benozoval56
Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2022
Posts: 28
Location: Seacombe Gardens
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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| rustybug1990 wrote: |
| What kind of power numbers should this be able to handle? I'm not sure what exactly I want to build yet but I know it will be close to 2.0L and turbo charged. Is this something that would be worth my time or should I just but another unit? |
It's more to do with the severity of your launches that will break any "built gearbox" as opposed to how much HP you are producing |
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rustybug1990
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2019
Posts: 56
Location: NC
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 6:32 am Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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| Bump |
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rustybug1990
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2019
Posts: 56
Location: NC
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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| What kind of power numbers should this be able to handle? I'm not sure what exactly I want to build yet but I know it will be close to 2.0L and turbo charged. Is this something that would be worth my time or should I just but another unit? |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4858
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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| Most that use the 15/10 tooth combo gears in a swing axle diff are using two spider gears in an oem housing. If you want a super diff, you’re going to have to find a NLA used/nos one specifically made for the 15/10 tooth gears. All of the modern new commonly available super diffs are made for the more common 17/11 combos, and the 15/10 gears will not mesh properly with 4 spider gears. |
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benozoval56
Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2022
Posts: 28
Location: Seacombe Gardens
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:20 am Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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Quick question on the Super Diff.
Can 10T spiders and 15T side gears be used without ant further modifications required? |
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nsracing
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9370
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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Looks like you are going far from the reservation.  Maybe you are one of those who just wakes up one day and be good at transmissions. YOu may want to slowdown cutting stuff. Bernie Bergman did many things to the VW engines. -just saying.
I started out sticking exactly to the Bentley manual when I built my first trans and used that for years -put me thru school. Then somewhere along there, I built many more for others. Since I have had my machines I did more mods required in drags and learned a bit more on what not to do on the parts.
If this is gonna be your trans, so be it - modify as much as you want. But I sure hope you will not do these to customers' trans if you ever decide to do them for money.
But I am truly enjoying myself watching this thread. |
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benozoval56
Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2022
Posts: 28
Location: Seacombe Gardens
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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| ngobet wrote: |
Let's move to end play....
The dark circlip is the 002 version, thinner than the 091. On this picture, you can see that the hub was machined to position it correctly.
The next picture is after removing the circlip, when the hub is push against the front 091 circlip (top). When machining the hub, measure the difference of thickness of the circlip (usually 002 is 1.49mm, 091 is 2.47mm). 4th gear will have around 0.25mm play and 3rd 0.50mm play (see...). You will then machine around 0.80mm off the hub (MEASURE YOURSELF ON YOUR PARTS) to split the endplay between the 2 gears, and both gears will end with 0.37mm.
Now all your idler gears are well oiled and have sufficient endplay.
Don't do the handpacking of the needle bearing as suggested by Berg. It brings too much heat in the gear. Look for the early caged needle bearing, there is more room for oil. |
my 3rd/4th gear slider has a groove on the "teeth" and I cannot remember which way it came off the shaft. Is there a diagram that shows which way this should be installed please? |
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nsracing
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9370
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2022 3:27 am Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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YOu people certainly have too much time on your hands.
I once saw a flywheel w/ several dozens drill holes in it. Maybe improve the performance of pistons by drilling right thru the top of it? |
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ALB
Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2008
Posts: 3476
Location: beautiful suburban Wet Coast of Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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| benozoval56 wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
| benozoval56 wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
This is a great thread.
Next is for the details of doing all this,
And it'll get long and off-track for sure! 
Like,
What drill bits are hard enough to drill holes in the hubs?
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what size holes am I drilling here please? |
| ngobet wrote: |
Drill 3mm holes in the hub. . |
Just have to read the thead..  |
have read too many times and still missed it |
Carbide bits will drill holes in hardened trans parts. Be aware that they aren't cheap, and are somewhat fragile.
A lot of trans parts are surface hardened to a depth of .030"- .040". The gears are softer, inside, but if you're drilling all the way through be careful when hitting the hardened material on the other side. When you break through the surface, if you're too aggressive you'll break the bit. Up here carbide bits are expensive. I've broken 2 1/8" ($20 each) and 1 1/4" bit (over $50- guess how loud I yelled when I broke that 1!). The shift forks weren't especially hard, but thought I'd post that pic to show what's possible...
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benozoval56
Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2022
Posts: 28
Location: Seacombe Gardens
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 4:12 am Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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| Clatter wrote: |
| benozoval56 wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
This is a great thread.
Next is for the details of doing all this,
And it'll get long and off-track for sure!
Like,
What drill bits are hard enough to drill holes in the hubs?
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what size holes am I drilling here please? |
| ngobet wrote: |
Drill 3mm holes in the hub. . |
Just have to read the thead.. |
have read too many times and still missed it |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4858
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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The early cones have been out of stock for quite some time, and unless Weddle decides to start making them, they are pretty much nla.
I have yet to need to use the later hubs that don’t use the washer. That’s something I would run by Scott. It’s my understanding they are a direct replacement for the early hub with the washer, so I would imagine you still will have excess endplay to take up if using a late splined slider hub. You may need to trial assemble the shaft to find out how much endplay you have. You still need to weld the late style washerless cone for the 113 gears. You could get some shim stock and cut out a small spacer washer to set your endplay to press the hub up against before welding. |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7442
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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| benozoval56 wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
This is a great thread.
Next is for the details of doing all this,
And it'll get long and off-track for sure!
Like,
What drill bits are hard enough to drill holes in the hubs?
Some 3-4 hubs just drill like butter.
Others are so hard that homeowner drill bits don't stand a chance of even starting.
None of these even had a prayer.
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what size holes am I drilling here please? |
| ngobet wrote: |
Drill 3mm holes in the hub. . |
Just have to read the thead..
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Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7442
Location: Santa Cruz
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benozoval56
Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2022
Posts: 28
Location: Seacombe Gardens
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:39 am Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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| Clatter wrote: |
This is a great thread.
Next is for the details of doing all this,
And it'll get long and off-track for sure!
Like,
What drill bits are hard enough to drill holes in the hubs?
Some 3-4 hubs just drill like butter.
Others are so hard that homeowner drill bits don't stand a chance of even starting.
None of these even had a prayer.
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what size holes am I drilling here please? |
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4815
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Building a strong gearbox with 95% OEM parts |
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| b-man wrote: |
You could consider using a ‘61 -‘67 Type II 1.22:1 third gear instead of the 1.26:1 to lessen the spread between 3rd and 4th.
VW went from the 1.32/0.89 combo they used in the 1960 buses to the 1.22/0.82 combo in 1961. Might be a lot more useful when you need a slightly taller 3rd gear in certain instances at higher speeds when 4th gear can’t be used. |
I try to do this any time I use a .89 4th, they are getting hard to find tho
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