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VanMan2009
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2009
Posts: 166
Location: Seattle
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 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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| ProspectiveOwnergon wrote: |
| VanMan2009 wrote: |
| ProspectiveOwnergon wrote: |
Away we go to top balancing my 120ah pack! I am applying light clamped pressure as per the datasheets, these do swell up to 3mm each based on SOC. Basically this chemistry does breath a small amount. All cells were at 3.293, so HOPING charge isn't too long. Some charts show this at around 60-70 SOC, but LiFePo4 is so flat in SOC curves.
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For the folks who've blazed this trail already - how long is top balancing taking? I started last night and my cells are currently (pun intended) at 3.29v. At this rate, it seems like it's going to take about forever to get to 3.65 
Any tips/tricks to speed up the process? Or just be patient? Will Prouse said on his 'how to top balance' YouTube video it could take a while, but hope we're not talking about weeks haha. |
Depends on current you're putting in. Remember, these batteries charge curve is FLAT from about 30%-93% SOC. They will barely move for hours. If you're pushing 10amps, then hopefully about as long as the ah rating. Also...doing them in series is faster, but more strain on BMS to balance first time. |
My charger is putting out about 4 amps @ 3.65v and my total capacity is 280ah, so if 10 amps should get me charged in ~280 hours, then @ 4 amps I should be charged in time for 2021
I just have my cells connected in parallel, voltage set @ 3.65v, amps turned all the way up (only 4amps currently). BMS is not hooked up currently.
It looks like I could set up my cells in series, with BMS, and then use my Sears/Craftsman lead-acid battery charger on the AGM profile to charge the bank. If I understand correctly, the BMS would read fully charged and stop charging as soon as the first cell in the bank is full. I could then set the cells back up in parallel and top-balance the rest of the way.
Any flaws in that logic? Am I better off being patient and waiting? Obviously I don't want to do anything to hurt my cells. |
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ProspectiveOwnergon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2020
Posts: 211
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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| VanMan2009 wrote: |
| ProspectiveOwnergon wrote: |
| VanMan2009 wrote: |
| ProspectiveOwnergon wrote: |
Away we go to top balancing my 120ah pack! I am applying light clamped pressure as per the datasheets, these do swell up to 3mm each based on SOC. Basically this chemistry does breath a small amount. All cells were at 3.293, so HOPING charge isn't too long. Some charts show this at around 60-70 SOC, but LiFePo4 is so flat in SOC curves.
|
For the folks who've blazed this trail already - how long is top balancing taking? I started last night and my cells are currently (pun intended) at 3.29v. At this rate, it seems like it's going to take about forever to get to 3.65
Any tips/tricks to speed up the process? Or just be patient? Will Prouse said on his 'how to top balance' YouTube video it could take a while, but hope we're not talking about weeks haha. |
Depends on current you're putting in. Remember, these batteries charge curve is FLAT from about 30%-93% SOC. They will barely move for hours. If you're pushing 10amps, then hopefully about as long as the ah rating. Also...doing them in series is faster, but more strain on BMS to balance first time. |
My charger is putting out about 4 amps @ 3.65v and my total capacity is 280ah, so if 10 amps should get me charged in ~280 hours, then @ 4 amps I should be charged in time for 2021
I just have my cells connected in parallel, voltage set @ 3.65v, amps turned all the way up (only 4amps currently). BMS is not hooked up currently.
It looks like I could set up my cells in series, with BMS, and then use my Sears/Craftsman lead-acid battery charger on the AGM profile to charge the bank. If I understand correctly, the BMS would read fully charged and stop charging as soon as the first cell in the bank is full. I could then set the cells back up in parallel and top-balance the rest of the way.
Any flaws in that logic? Am I better off being patient and waiting? Obviously I don't want to do anything to hurt my cells. |
Did your PS allow for 10amp? If so, upgrade your wires charging the pack to before wires and you'll get 10amps easy.
Honestly, be patient and charge in parallel. Will Prowse's newest LiFePo4 video shows how series doesn't TRULY to balance first time and takes a few cycles. Parallel just sets you up clean out the gate |
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fxr
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014
Posts: 2315
Location: Bay area CA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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| ProspectiveOwnergon wrote: |
| VanMan2009 wrote: |
My charger is putting out about 4 amps @ 3.65v and my total capacity is 280ah, so if 10 amps should get me charged in ~280 hours, then @ 4 amps I should be charged in time for 2021
I just have my cells connected in parallel, voltage set @ 3.65v, amps turned all the way up (only 4amps currently). BMS is not hooked up currently.
It looks like I could set up my cells in series, with BMS, and then use my Sears/Craftsman lead-acid battery charger on the AGM profile to charge the bank. If I understand correctly, the BMS would read fully charged and stop charging as soon as the first cell in the bank is full. I could then set the cells back up in parallel and top-balance the rest of the way.
Any flaws in that logic? Am I better off being patient and waiting? Obviously I don't want to do anything to hurt my cells. |
Did your PS allow for 10amp? If so, upgrade your wires charging the pack to before wires and you'll get 10amps easy.
Honestly, be patient and charge in parallel. Will Prowse's newest LiFePo4 video shows how series doesn't TRULY to balance first time and takes a few cycles. Parallel just sets you up clean out the gate |
Yes, series doesn't balance properly, BUT VanMan2009 is correct - you can charge in series and then top-balance in parallel. This would be quicker from scratch than just balancing in parallel from 20% charged. Could still take several days for 280Ah cells though. 
_________________
Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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shagginwagon83
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 3794
Location: VA/TN
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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| fxr wrote: |
OK.  How are you feeding the Tribeca alternator with a starter battery sense wire? I found that if I used the 'big white wire' from the original Subie alt then the volts never rose to 14.4. That's the reason I went for a direct extra wire connection from the starter battery.
Oh, and the 300Ah is *awesome*. It's an infinity battery to all intents and purposes - an electrical equivalent to the everlasting bottle of Guiness. |
I also did a direct connection to the starter battery - but I literally jumped the middle (I believe) wire straight to the alternator positive post. I had issues trying to get it to work - like you. I'm not a fan of this because I'm pretty sure if my alternator went out, I would not see the light on the dash. Also - the light blue Westy wire under the driver seat is always hot now. I used to use that for a 'we are charging' wire.
I had to use the ignition source to turn on my dc-dc charger. This is bad because while I have the ignition on, but not the engine, I am draining my starting battery.
I have some work to do
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Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan |
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fxr
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014
Posts: 2315
Location: Bay area CA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:53 am Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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| shagginwagon83 wrote: |
| fxr wrote: |
OK. How are you feeding the Tribeca alternator with a starter battery sense wire? I found that if I used the 'big white wire' from the original Subie alt then the volts never rose to 14.4. That's the reason I went for a direct extra wire connection from the starter battery.
Oh, and the 300Ah is *awesome*. It's an infinity battery to all intents and purposes - an electrical equivalent to the everlasting bottle of Guiness. |
I also did a direct connection to the starter battery - but I literally jumped the middle (I believe) wire straight to the alternator positive post. I had issues trying to get it to work - like you. I'm not a fan of this because I'm pretty sure if my alternator went out, I would not see the light on the dash. Also - the light blue Westy wire under the driver seat is always hot now. I used to use that for a 'we are charging' wire.
I had to use the ignition source to turn on my dc-dc charger. This is bad because while I have the ignition on, but not the engine, I am draining my starting battery.
I have some work to do |
That doesn't sound right to me - on mine the right-most wire (nearest the big main o/p post) just connects to the VW alt light as before, and the middle one directly to the starter battery (not the big main alt post) via a relay. Double check there's no current drain on that middle wire - that's why I had to send three alternators back, and added the relay, which is not strictly necessary with the new alternator.
_________________
Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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Italjohn
Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2016
Posts: 193
Location: Molde, Norway
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VanMan2009
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2009
Posts: 166
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:19 am Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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Well, hoping I didn't accidentally mess up my cells!
I've been top balancing them using the same method as Will Prowse - had them in parallel, charger set to 3.6v, amps maxed on the charger (~10.5 amps). They've been happily charging away on my workbench for several days. This morning I go down to check on them and they're all at 4.3v!
Last night I was at 3.35v, and now they've jumped waaaay up. I don't know if there's something wrong with the charger, I'm not sure why if it was set to 3.6v it would keep charging past that point, all the way up to 4.2! I immediately pulled them off the charger but I'm worried I over cooked them!
Are they ok, or toast? Should I try and drain the cells down some? help  |
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fxr
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014
Posts: 2315
Location: Bay area CA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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| VanMan2009 wrote: |
Well, hoping I didn't accidentally mess up my cells!
I've been top balancing them using the same method as Will Prowse - had them in parallel, charger set to 3.6v, amps maxed on the charger (~10.5 amps). They've been happily charging away on my workbench for several days. This morning I go down to check on them and they're all at 4.3v!
Last night I was at 3.35v, and now they've jumped waaaay up. I don't know if there's something wrong with the charger, I'm not sure why if it was set to 3.6v it would keep charging past that point, all the way up to 4.2! I immediately pulled them off the charger but I'm worried I over cooked them!
Are they ok, or toast? Should I try and drain the cells down some? help |
As you were charging at 10A (the max for that power supply) it was the *current* that was being limited, NOT the voltage.
_________________
Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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ProspectiveOwnergon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2020
Posts: 211
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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| VanMan2009 wrote: |
Well, hoping I didn't accidentally mess up my cells!
I've been top balancing them using the same method as Will Prowse - had them in parallel, charger set to 3.6v, amps maxed on the charger (~10.5 amps). They've been happily charging away on my workbench for several days. This morning I go down to check on them and they're all at 4.3v!
Last night I was at 3.35v, and now they've jumped waaaay up. I don't know if there's something wrong with the charger, I'm not sure why if it was set to 3.6v it would keep charging past that point, all the way up to 4.2! I immediately pulled them off the charger but I'm worried I over cooked them!
Are they ok, or toast? Should I try and drain the cells down some? help |
Did you set your voltage to 3.65 and THEN connect the batteries, or connect batteries, turn on PS and then set to 3.65? |
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VanMan2009
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2009
Posts: 166
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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| ProspectiveOwnergon wrote: |
| VanMan2009 wrote: |
Well, hoping I didn't accidentally mess up my cells!
I've been top balancing them using the same method as Will Prowse - had them in parallel, charger set to 3.6v, amps maxed on the charger (~10.5 amps). They've been happily charging away on my workbench for several days. This morning I go down to check on them and they're all at 4.3v!
Last night I was at 3.35v, and now they've jumped waaaay up. I don't know if there's something wrong with the charger, I'm not sure why if it was set to 3.6v it would keep charging past that point, all the way up to 4.2! I immediately pulled them off the charger but I'm worried I over cooked them!
Are they ok, or toast? Should I try and drain the cells down some? help |
Did you set your voltage to 3.65 and THEN connect the batteries, or connect batteries, turn on PS and then set to 3.65? |
At one point I turned the charger off and replaced the leads that came with it with 10ga wire to increase the amps that were flowing through.
So the charger was already set to 3.65 when I turned it back on to charge using the new leads I created. I didn't think it mattered?
Either way, my cells are sitting at 4.2 right now. From what I've read 4.2 seems to be the upper end of how much voltage they'll take... hoping I didn't do irreparable harm! |
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ProspectiveOwnergon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2020
Posts: 211
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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| VanMan2009 wrote: |
| ProspectiveOwnergon wrote: |
| VanMan2009 wrote: |
Well, hoping I didn't accidentally mess up my cells!
I've been top balancing them using the same method as Will Prowse - had them in parallel, charger set to 3.6v, amps maxed on the charger (~10.5 amps). They've been happily charging away on my workbench for several days. This morning I go down to check on them and they're all at 4.3v!
Last night I was at 3.35v, and now they've jumped waaaay up. I don't know if there's something wrong with the charger, I'm not sure why if it was set to 3.6v it would keep charging past that point, all the way up to 4.2! I immediately pulled them off the charger but I'm worried I over cooked them!
Are they ok, or toast? Should I try and drain the cells down some? help |
Did you set your voltage to 3.65 and THEN connect the batteries, or connect batteries, turn on PS and then set to 3.65? |
At one point I turned the charger off and replaced the leads that came with it with 10ga wire to increase the amps that were flowing through.
So the charger was already set to 3.65 when I turned it back on to charge using the new leads I created. I didn't think it mattered?
Either way, my cells are sitting at 4.2 right now. From what I've read 4.2 seems to be the upper end of how much voltage they'll take... hoping I didn't do irreparable harm! |
Sounds like you accidentally raised your PS above 3.65. The PS will always ty to push 10amps, so you adjusting mught have actually been to voltage somehow. Honestly...I'd go over and ask/research on DIYSolarforum vs here. They might be way more intel on how to check safety of the cells... bummer you're having to go through with that test/check. :/
Last edited by ProspectiveOwnergon on Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bsrad
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2012
Posts: 256
Location: Coeur d’Alene, Idaho
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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| Italjohn wrote: |
Here is my Lithium setup
Link
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Hey there italjohn. Can you tell me what Bluetooth app meter and dc-dc charger you are using?
Thanks..
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Bill
-----------
1987 Syncro Westy
1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40 |
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mtnhome 
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 494
Location: Summit County, CO
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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Hoping to see what the LiFePO4 battery gurus on here think.
I made an impulse buy of 125ah cells on FB Marketplace of 125ah cells at what seemed like a good price(under $300)
They arrived today and the box was a little beat up and two of the cells had these dents.
The seller has no more of the 125ah cells but has offered to send two new 120ah cells to replace these.
Two questions:
Will these dents likely be a problem?
Can you combine 2 120ah cells with 2 125ah cells or do I need to replace all 4 with 120ah cells?
Thanks!
_________________
'84 Westy, '93 Subaru ej22 and Subarugears 5speed
Build thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=763098&highlight= |
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fxr
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014
Posts: 2315
Location: Bay area CA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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I'd ask the seller for four 120Ah cells - but if they are the same size as the 125Ah ones then personally I'd be content to accept just two if the seller is adamant that's all he's willing to replace.
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Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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mtnhome
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 494
Location: Summit County, CO
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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| fxr wrote: |
| I'd ask the seller for four 120Ah cells - but if they are the same size as the 125Ah ones then personally I'd be content to accept just two if the seller is adamant that's all he's willing to replace. |
Thanks. I just checked and all 4 cells are at 2.96v.
I'll see what he's willing to do.
_________________
'84 Westy, '93 Subaru ej22 and Subarugears 5speed
Build thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=763098&highlight= |
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rmcd
Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2010
Posts: 1348
Location: PNW - its a dry rain.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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| ProspectiveOwnergon wrote: |
| VanMan2009 wrote: |
| ProspectiveOwnergon wrote: |
| VanMan2009 wrote: |
Well, hoping I didn't accidentally mess up my cells!
I've been top balancing them using the same method as Will Prowse - had them in parallel, charger set to 3.6v, amps maxed on the charger (~10.5 amps). They've been happily charging away on my workbench for several days. This morning I go down to check on them and they're all at 4.3v!
Last night I was at 3.35v, and now they've jumped waaaay up. I don't know if there's something wrong with the charger, I'm not sure why if it was set to 3.6v it would keep charging past that point, all the way up to 4.2! I immediately pulled them off the charger but I'm worried I over cooked them!
Are they ok, or toast? Should I try and drain the cells down some? help |
Did you set your voltage to 3.65 and THEN connect the batteries, or connect batteries, turn on PS and then set to 3.65? |
At one point I turned the charger off and replaced the leads that came with it with 10ga wire to increase the amps that were flowing through.
So the charger was already set to 3.65 when I turned it back on to charge using the new leads I created. I didn't think it mattered?
Either way, my cells are sitting at 4.2 right now. From what I've read 4.2 seems to be the upper end of how much voltage they'll take... hoping I didn't do irreparable harm! |
Sounds like you accidentally raised your PS above 3.65. The PS will always ty to push 10amps, so you adjusting mught have actually been to voltage somehow. Honestly...I'd go over and ask/research on DIYSolarforum vs here. They might be way more intel on how to check safety of the cells... bummer you're having to go through with that test/check. :/ |
I left my current volume knob at zero and then set my voltage knob at 3.65.
It took a solid ten minutes before the PS decided to charge and then the CC current display changed from reading zero amps to something like 4.8 amps.
_________________
VW LT40 build. Like a Vanagon but 30% larger in every direction and 40% slower even in metric.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=749359&highlight= |
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ProspectiveOwnergon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2020
Posts: 211
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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| mtnhome wrote: |
Hoping to see what the LiFePO4 battery gurus on here think.
I made an impulse buy of 125ah cells on FB Marketplace of 125ah cells at what seemed like a good price(under $300)
They arrived today and the box was a little beat up and two of the cells had these dents.
The seller has no more of the 125ah cells but has offered to send two new 120ah cells to replace these.
Two questions:
Will these dents likely be a problem?
Can you combine 2 120ah cells with 2 125ah cells or do I need to replace all 4 with 120ah cells?
Thanks! |
Yes, I believe you can combine the 125 and 120, but you'll be valued at 125ah since your BMS will stop at 3.65, so your two 120ah will be the first to reach "full" SOC |
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VanMan2009
Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2009
Posts: 166
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:34 am Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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| rmcd wrote: |
| ProspectiveOwnergon wrote: |
| VanMan2009 wrote: |
| ProspectiveOwnergon wrote: |
| VanMan2009 wrote: |
Well, hoping I didn't accidentally mess up my cells!
I've been top balancing them using the same method as Will Prowse - had them in parallel, charger set to 3.6v, amps maxed on the charger (~10.5 amps). They've been happily charging away on my workbench for several days. This morning I go down to check on them and they're all at 4.3v!
Last night I was at 3.35v, and now they've jumped waaaay up. I don't know if there's something wrong with the charger, I'm not sure why if it was set to 3.6v it would keep charging past that point, all the way up to 4.2! I immediately pulled them off the charger but I'm worried I over cooked them!
Are they ok, or toast? Should I try and drain the cells down some? help |
Did you set your voltage to 3.65 and THEN connect the batteries, or connect batteries, turn on PS and then set to 3.65? |
At one point I turned the charger off and replaced the leads that came with it with 10ga wire to increase the amps that were flowing through.
So the charger was already set to 3.65 when I turned it back on to charge using the new leads I created. I didn't think it mattered?
Either way, my cells are sitting at 4.2 right now. From what I've read 4.2 seems to be the upper end of how much voltage they'll take... hoping I didn't do irreparable harm! |
Sounds like you accidentally raised your PS above 3.65. The PS will always ty to push 10amps, so you adjusting mught have actually been to voltage somehow. Honestly...I'd go over and ask/research on DIYSolarforum vs here. They might be way more intel on how to check safety of the cells... bummer you're having to go through with that test/check. :/ |
I left my current volume knob at zero and then set my voltage knob at 3.65.
It took a solid ten minutes before the PS decided to charge and then the CC current display changed from reading zero amps to something like 4.8 amps. |
Did you set the voltage first, and then connect the PS to your cells in parallel? I learned that lesson the hard way 
My advice is to set it the correct way ^^ and then be patient. There's a lot of discussion on top balancing on the DIYSolarforum linked earlier and it turns out lots of noobs like me mess this up. |
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ProspectiveOwnergon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2020
Posts: 211
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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| rmcd wrote: |
I left my current volume knob at zero and then set my voltage knob at 3.65.
It took a solid ten minutes before the PS decided to charge and then the CC current display changed from reading zero amps to something like 4.8 amps. |
Think that's your issue. PS you turn current (bottom knob) to max right, set voltage (top knob) to 3.65. Turn off PS, connect to batteries, turn on PS. PS will immediately pump 10amps and ramp to wire allowable. Knobs should NOT be touched while connected to batteries unless you're hughly skilled and monitoring each battery MORE THAN A HAWK for the 3.65 hit and immediately shut it down. |
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bobbyblack
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4348
Location: United States, Iowa
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread |
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On my initial top float, I got a little over 3.65V, concerned, I emailed Overkill for advice. Steve replied that his understanding was that 4.2V was not too worrisome, from what he'd been studying. That was in November 2020.
quoting Steve:
"These cells don't take immediate damage until they get over 4.2v if I recall correctly."
I was relieved, but I had not gotten up to 4.2 either, so hope all is okay with your bank.
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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