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harrymarlin
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:09 am    Post subject: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

I'm looking to add the book "Small on Safety" by Ralph Nader's group to my library, if I can find it for a reasonable price (anyone selling?), however I seem to recall reading a defense of the Beetle, point by point going through the book, either online or in another book. It talked about specific data points and how they were cherry picked or glossed over. I'm assuming the information was here on The Samba, but I'm having a lot of trouble finding it.

Does anyone recall or know what I am referring to? I'd like to also include this defense in my library.

Thanks!
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Matt Wilson
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

I have an old used copy of Small on Safety on my bookshelf. Bought it for only a few bucks a couple years ago. Not sure why it's so expensive now! I've not heard of the defense version. Interesting.
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finster
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

perhaps you are thinking of this retort
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/1972_road_track_nader.php
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harrymarlin
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

finster wrote:
perhaps you are thinking of this retort
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/1972_road_track_nader.php


Yes!! That's it! Thank you, finster!
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oprn
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:17 am    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

Those were interesting times!
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VWAdam
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

I have that book and aside from a couple of specific items, it's just stating what I feel is obvious. The driver of a smaller car will likely not fare as well as the driver of a larger car. Laughing
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

The book was written during an American paranoia (well-founded it turned out) of import cars taking sales away from domestics, who never wanted to be in the small car (small profit) market. Also, gas was less than a quarter a gallon, a good decade away from the first oil embargo. BIG was the answer. Of course the Bug didn't fare well, but then neither did the American subcompacts. Pinto Flambeau, anyone?

There are a few valid gripes, though... mostly taken care of in later models... the spear of a steering column, flimsy gas tank mounting, fragile seat tracks... but much of it was hype.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

None of these books were good engineering analyses, they were political tomes written to further careers

Hades, all of the cars on the road in the 1950s and 60s were unsafe at any speed, but drivers compensated by paying attention to their limitations.

Now, we engineer for stupidity.
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typ914
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:21 am    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

So true. Engineer for idiots.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

typ914 wrote:
So true. Engineer for idiots.


What’s wrong with building in safety, covering all or most of the possibilities? I’ve been witness to two serious crashes involving Volvo automobiles. In both instances the drivers walked away. The car is disposable are you?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

Zundfolge1432 wrote:
typ914 wrote:
So true. Engineer for idiots.


What’s wrong with building in safety, covering all or most of the possibilities? I’ve been witness to two serious crashes involving Volvo automobiles. In both instances the drivers walked away. The car is disposable are you?


Cost. We have reached the point where the gains in safety are now incremental vs added cost, lack of serviceability, and huge cost of obsolescence.
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Last edited by Abscate on Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:31 am    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

I think the danger in modern cars is the lack of feeling you're in a mass of metal going at speed so a lot of drivers lose sight of the risk. especially when given the distraction of an infotainment screen.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

The new cars we drive today are the safest I’ve ever seen and fun too. I got hold of a new Camry last week. Even in 4 cylinder form it runs strong. Interior was nice,sound system nice. It’s 100% throwaway car, love it.
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oprn
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:35 am    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
The book was written during an American paranoia (well-founded it turned out) of import cars taking sales away from domestics, who never wanted to be in the small car (small profit) market. Also, gas was less than a quarter a gallon, a good decade away from the first oil embargo. BIG was the answer. Of course the Bug didn't fare well, but then neither did the American subcompacts. Pinto Flambeau, anyone?

There are a few valid gripes, though... mostly taken care of in later models... the spear of a steering column, flimsy gas tank mounting, fragile seat tracks... but much of it was hype.

Abscate wrote:
None of these books were good engineering analyses, they were political tomes written to further careers

Hades, all of the cars on the road in the 1950s and 60s were unsafe at any speed, but drivers compensated by paying attention to their limitations.

Now, we engineer for stupidity.

All so true!

Ralph's ramblings were indeed highly politically motivated and full of holes and omissions. But - they served his career well...

Those were different times and conditions. Today's traffic volumes and speeds are a completely different ball game and a lot of the safety advances are well justified.

However we are, in my opinion, cresting the peak of what is practical and reasonable in trying to develop an "idiot proof" car. Traction control that stops the car in the middle of the road when in adverse weather is one example, another is proximity sensors that will not allow you to exit your parking space if someone else has parked too close. My brother had a car that the automatic climate control system failed (windshield frosted up) in the winter when the wheel speed sensors iced over (yes this was confirmed by the dealer)! Manufacturers are now creating hazards that never existed with their increased safety efforts.

My feeling is that the focus should be more on the drivers at this point. Anyone and everyone gets a driver's license these days... yet so many cannot back a car up, negotiate a traffic roundabout, park properly in a marked parking lot, use signal lights to change lanes, etc.

Instead of making idiot proof cars, let's work on eliminating the well known weak point - the nut behind the wheel! Some think the autonomous car is the answer. We have had those for decades, taxis, busses, light rail transit and subways. Use them if you are not a competent driver!
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
...but drivers compensated by paying attention to their limitations.


A man's got to know his car's limitations.


Link
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Floating VW
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

Idiot proof cars - it kind of reminds me of that movie Idiocracy.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:13 am    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

"Unsafe At Any Speed" and "Small on Safety" by Ralph Nader was the beginning of public awareness of Safety in the Design of Consumer Products.
People my age(Boomers) played with toys that no sane person would allow these days.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:36 am    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

Jarts
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:21 am    Post subject: Re: Small on Safety - Defense? Reply with quote

ach60 wrote:
"Unsafe At Any Speed" and "Small on Safety" by Ralph Nader was the beginning of public awareness of Safety in the Design of Consumer Products.
People my age(Boomers) played with toys that no sane person would allow these days.

No - it was already well on it's way, Ralph was just clever enough to ride the crest and shout "Look at me!"
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