Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts New!  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
1,6TD - leaking injector hoses
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
epowell
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4350
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
epowell is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:59 am    Post subject: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

Hi Folks

I have an issue with leaking injector hoses, but suspect that the problem might be that those nipples on the injectors might themselves be leaking - is that possible.

Basically my old hoses 4mmID ended up leaking like crazy so the best I could find to replace them were some reinforced hose 3.2mmID (original is 3.5mmID) - but this new hose is 10mm OD so I trimmed down the OD on the ends of the hose to get them to fit on the injector nipples.

All of them worked fine except on injector#3 BOTH hoses leaked... so I completely replaced both hoses being extra careful to trim the hose ends very evenly --- just not took it for a drive, and upon return found out that exactly those 2 hoses/nipples are leaking - ONLY on injector#3. This leads me to strongly assume that the leakage is NOT coming from the hose - but rather from the nipples themselves.

It occurred to me that perhaps the metal pipe (17mm nut) is not on tightly enough??? But I tested that and it seems really tight.

So, maybe something is wrong with this injector?
Any ideas?
Thanks
Ed

PS, the fuel is definitely leaking from those nipples - or the hoses on the nipples... fuel is definitely coming from both those areas --- whether or not it is ALSO coming from the metal pipe is not 100% clear but it really doesn't seem to be. But the leaks at the nipples area is 100% obvious.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
www.edwardpowell.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
stuzbot
Samba Member


Joined: March 30, 2018
Posts: 366
Location: Lying in a Puddle under a Van
stuzbot is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:57 am    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

Those leak-off pipes have been the bane of my life on the last 3 VW vans I've owned and I'd wager it's the hoses, not the nipples themselves. They can leak without any visible signs of damage --I had to replace one on my Syncro only a couple of weeks ago that was only a few months old and looked perfect on the outside. So, chances are you've affected their structural integrity by shaving the ends.

I had similar problems with my previous LT where I couldn't find hose of the same diameter to replace the leaking ones. In the end I went to my local B&Q [general purpose hardware chain] and bought some appropriately sized PVC tube, which they sell by the meter.

I can't remember the exact dimensions, but it was just too tight ID to push over the nipples by hand. So I rested the end of each bit in a pot of boiling water for a few mins to soften it up, dried it with tissue and then forced it onto the nipples. Made a great seal and I never had any hint of a leak from there again. Obviously you need to make sure you get pretty sturdy PVC tube, so it will resist the heat of the engine bay.

Another advantage of using PVC tube is that you can see the diesel flowing through all the leak-off pipes which is good for troubleshooting those "have I got air in the fuel system?" questions.
_________________
*****************************
Click to view image
*****************************
1992 VW LT35 2,4D [SOLD]
1993 VW LT35 2,4D [SOLD]
1992 VW T3 1,6TD Syncro
*****************************
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
epowell
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4350
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
epowell is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:10 am    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

Thanks... yeah I am starting to suspect it is simply the hose. I can order original hose $15/meter. Expensive but not SOOOO expensive. . . but in any case I will try to locate a local source - should be possible.

I think I will first go with an excellent hose before seriously considering that the injector housing might be cracked or something.....

Thanks for you feedback.

I can remember the first time trying to remove this van's original hoses - it was next to impossible to get them off!
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
stuzbot
Samba Member


Joined: March 30, 2018
Posts: 366
Location: Lying in a Puddle under a Van
stuzbot is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

After 'botching' the job on my first LT with the aforementioned PVC tubing, I thought I'd splash out when I got my 2nd LT and do the job properly, so bought a roll of the 'proper' tubing from a diesel fuel line specialist. I wasn't impressed.

The rubber was so soft, it was easy to push on [and pull off the nipples] with hardly any effort. So I ended up wrapping twists of wire round the ends where it went over the nipples as I wasn't convinced they were on tight enough to be airtight and not to come off. I also had to replace a couple over the subsequent couple of years as they started leaking again.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Meanwhile, that cheapo PVC tubing I used the first time around gripped on so tight you'd have had to slice it off with a blade, if you wanted to remove it. And never gave any trouble in the 4+ years I had that van.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Sometimes cheaping out is actually the better option!


<off-topic>

Sigh! --I miss that first LT sometimes. Battered old rust bucket. Cost me 300 and gave me several years of generally faithful service. And, the odd time something broke on it I'd think "Oh well. At least the old boy's trying his best" and I'd botch something to patch it together again and it would chug along on for another several trouble-free months.

Fast forward to my current Syncro which cost me 8000, always seems to need something attending to, gets fixed with quality parts all the time and, every time something breaks on it and I have to reach for my wallet, I think "You pampered bastard! Aren't you ever going to be satisfied?"
_________________
*****************************
Click to view image
*****************************
1992 VW LT35 2,4D [SOLD]
1993 VW LT35 2,4D [SOLD]
1992 VW T3 1,6TD Syncro
*****************************
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
?Waldo?
Samba Member


Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 8709
Location: Where?
?Waldo? is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:20 am    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

It's good to keep in mind that you are the one doing things to the vehicle, not the other way around.

The best tubing I have found for between the injectors is 1/8" ID, 1/4" OD tygothane tubing from mcmaster-carr, now known as versilon tubing. https://www.mcmaster.com/versilon-c-210-a-tubing Clamps are not necessary. I have been using that tubing on multiple vehicles for the last decade or so. It works very well in that application.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MarkWard
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 14094
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
MarkWard is online now 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

In this country, the proper vent hose had a faint yellow tracer on it to identify it as diesel injector hose.

The one picture it almost looks like the injector assembly is leaking below the vent nipples. They do have threaded bodies. Might be worth a check if the vent line does not cure your leak.
_________________
1982 Vanagon Camper with ALH TDI.
1990 Vanagon Camper Syncro.
In Car https://youtu.be/5hbfdUJR88Q
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
epowell
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4350
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
epowell is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:

The one picture it almost looks like the injector assembly is leaking below the vent nipples. They do have threaded bodies.


what has threaded bodies? Are the metal nipples threaded into the housing?
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
valvecovergasket
Samba Member


Joined: October 10, 2018
Posts: 711
Location: pnw
valvecovergasket is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

epowell wrote:
MarkWard wrote:

The one picture it almost looks like the injector assembly is leaking below the vent nipples. They do have threaded bodies.


what has threaded bodies? Are the metal nipples threaded into the housing?


no, the injectors have a threaded body
_________________
MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com

'83 tdi westy - swap thread
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
epowell
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4350
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
epowell is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

valvecovergasket wrote:

no, the injectors have a threaded body


Yeah... 2 parts screwed together.
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ZsZ
Samba Member


Joined: December 11, 2010
Posts: 1010
Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
ZsZ is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

epowell wrote:
MarkWard wrote:

The one picture it almost looks like the injector assembly is leaking below the vent nipples. They do have threaded bodies.


what has threaded bodies? Are the metal nipples threaded into the housing?


The injector housings are made out of two halves. The upper part screws into the lower part. If it is loose a bit then it can leak.
This is what I tought too after you sent me the pics.
But as you wrote on messenger you cleaned the injector housing with brake cleaner and it became wet at the nipples.

You can try the wire "clamp" that Stuzbot did on his LT
_________________
Zoltan
1.9 MTdi Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
valvecovergasket
Samba Member


Joined: October 10, 2018
Posts: 711
Location: pnw
valvecovergasket is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

is it possible to order the proper hose to just eliminate the custom tapered stuff as a source of the problem. this should be an easy fix...

ive never had an issue with that leaking on any number of diesels - mb and vw - once new proper hose was on there.
_________________
MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com

'83 tdi westy - swap thread
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
epowell
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4350
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
epowell is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

ZsZ wrote:

But as you wrote on messenger you cleaned the injector housing with brake cleaner and it became wet at the nipples.


Actually I didn't clean up anything before that test... honestly it still seems very fishy to me - that the problem is somehow with the injector - not the hoses... perhaps that threaded part is loose......??


ZsZ wrote:

You can try the wire "clamp" that Stuzbot did on his LT


Yes this would be worth a test B4 I can locate better hose.
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ZsZ
Samba Member


Joined: December 11, 2010
Posts: 1010
Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
ZsZ is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

Here is a pic of a disassembled IDI injector:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Zoltan
1.9 MTdi Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
epowell
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4350
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
epowell is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

Maybe it is leaking at the threads and "capilary action" is pulling the fuel UP to the nipples.... could this be possible?
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ZsZ
Samba Member


Joined: December 11, 2010
Posts: 1010
Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
ZsZ is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:41 am    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

epowell wrote:
Maybe it is leaking at the threads and "capilary action" is pulling the fuel UP to the nipples.... could this be possible?


yes, or it leaks at both places.

this is why I said that clean the injector housing fully to dry with brake cleaner spray then start the engine and check where it gets wet.
If it gets wet at the hose then the hose or the nipples are bad. If it gets wet at the middle, then the two halves got loose.
_________________
Zoltan
1.9 MTdi Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
epowell
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4350
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
epowell is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:19 am    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

I'll do it now...
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
epowell
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4350
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
epowell is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:58 am    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

Pretty strange!

I cleaned the whole area with ACETONE. Then went for a drive, stopping to look at the injectors every few minutes... it took a while for any leaking to appear, but after about 3 KMs fuel began to appear. It is NOT (!) coming from the injector housing! It is coming from the hoses/nipples 100% sure.

The weird thing is that yesterday when I tested the leak started on the forward-facing nipple/hose and the rear-facing nipple/hose was dry... but it was a short test. Today, just now, as can be seen in the first pic, there is clearly a leak happening on the rear-facing (right side of pic) nipple/hose, and the left-side one seems more dry.

It is 100% clear that a leak is happening on the right-side nipple/hose...

But strange that yesterday the leak was happening on the left-side... does this mean that in fact BOTH nipples are leaking?

To my logic if BOTH are leaking then it would not seem to make sense that the HOSE is the issue because ALL the other hose connections are absolutely OK.

Maybe it is just the right side hose that is bad --- but then why did the left side get a leak yesterday?

FURTHERMORE, here in the 2nd pic, I show injector #1 on which the right-side hose is not even installed fully down onto the nipple, and still NO LEAK!

Lastly, here is a pic of all my injectors when I had them out a few years ago... notice that the possibly problematic injector in question, is not only the one that had more carbon buildup, but also is the only one that has some writing on it, and perhaps looks like it is an "odd-ball", perhaps from a different set? Could this shed light on this mystery?


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
www.edwardpowell.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
stuzbot
Samba Member


Joined: March 30, 2018
Posts: 366
Location: Lying in a Puddle under a Van
stuzbot is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:45 am    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

epowell wrote:
Maybe it is just the right side hose that is bad --- but then why did the left side get a leak yesterday?


OK. Here's a random theory:

When I used PVC tube for my leak-off pipes and could see inside, there was always some air bubbles in the pipes. Sometimes 2cm or 3cm long [1" or more]. Because of the way the injectors work in sequence, the diesel moves through those leak-off pipes not, as you might imagine, in a constant flow but kind of like a pulsing motion [you can feel this pulse if you put your hand on one of the pipes while the engine is running]. So if I was watching my PVC leak-off pipes, I could watch one of these bubbles move very slowly along [maybe 1mm or less at a time] in short pulses, as the engine ran.

It could be that both your pipes are leaking but yesterday you had a big bubble over one nipple, so only air came out there and today that bubble has moved to the other nipple, so now that one is only leaking air. Thus giving the appearance of one staying dry, each time.

This is pure speculation of course. But having had that window into what happens inside these leak-off pipes, I found out that any air in them can stay there for ages. In fact, even months after I re-did my fuel lines, there were still air bubbles in there.

It worried me at first but, after a while I just accepted it as one of those things. It certainly didn't affect the running of the engine in any way.

So, as I say; pure speculation but it's almost certain you've got some massive air bubbles in there at the moment, seeing as you've been replacing the hoses. So with any nipple which is sometimes dry sometimes wet, it may be dependent on whether or not it has an air bubble over it, at the time.
_________________
*****************************
Click to view image
*****************************
1992 VW LT35 2,4D [SOLD]
1993 VW LT35 2,4D [SOLD]
1992 VW T3 1,6TD Syncro
*****************************
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
epowell
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4350
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
epowell is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:04 am    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

Thanks Stuz...

I suspect you are probably right.
So where does that leave me now? I know the housing threads are OK, so it is either the nipples or the hoses on injector#2...

But why ONLY injector #2?

Maybe I will replace the right-side hose, then test again...

Maybe my test yesterday which showed the left side leaking was not completely accurate since it was a short test (but I really think I saw wetness forming only on the left hose) - perhaps it was not a definite test like today's test.
_________________
www.edwardpowell.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MarkWard
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 14094
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
MarkWard is online now 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: 1,6TD - leaking injector hoses Reply with quote

Id spend the $15 and get the correct hose. Your taper hose maybe be holding it off center slightly. Also, Ive never seen a nipple fail to seal. They are light weight and can be easily bent if not careful.
_________________
1982 Vanagon Camper with ALH TDI.
1990 Vanagon Camper Syncro.
In Car https://youtu.be/5hbfdUJR88Q
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB