Restoring semaphores

[Matts Bug Parts]

Ok, first I want to say that I am looking for feedback in terms of the direction I should take regarding my expertise in restoring semaphores and my concerns about the quality/price/workmanship out there for those interested in this subject. So, my the questions I would like feedback about are at the botton of this.

Next, what has brought me to this point is as follows:

I have been restoring semaphores for over 20 years and have striven to perfect my craft and provide high quality restored semaphores using the best possible cores, quality restoration parts prices that reflect value. I am always upfront about what is done and what if any flaws or shortcomings there are. I am also seeking out the best possible reproduction parts on the market. In the last year I have observed the following that are of concern:

1) One MAJOR** seller on the Samba sells complete reproduction semaphores without any mention of this in the ad. While no false statements are made the absence of this information is, I think, worse. The same seller advertises SWF semaphore lens brass bulb holders that sadly are nit useable. The bulb holder is in place so that you can slide it open and closed to replace the bulb in-situ. The repro is crudely made without any way to grad it like you can the original. This feedback was provided to them by a customer of mine.


2) I found a European supplier of parts for ribbed semaphores, such as lenses, outside arms etc. They also convert SWF smooth semaphores to Ribbed as does another advertiser here on the Samba. I made inquiries and was assured that their ribbed lenses and ribbed outside arms fit originals. I became disenchanted when my first email was greeted with an "auto" reply that they were too busy and could I email again in two weeks. I went thru 3 cycles of this before I got a reply. It was after the third email that i got the detailed reply about fit.

I did not order any parts because a customer whose smooth semaphores I previously restored asked me to repair and restore the smooth converted to ribbed SWF semaphores done by this European company. In this way I was able to see first hand the quality of parts without any expense on my part.
Here is what I found:

A) The repro inside short arm was nicely crafted, but the bolt holes were drilled for 3MM while original was 3.5MM. The holes were also slightly off the correct position so to fit the best made repro lens (Split Parts Unlimited) and repro outside arm we had to elongate the hole and make it oval shaped.

B) The repro lens was likewise short. The plastic was good quality but there were small pock marks all over them. While the lens fit their outside arm and matched up to the holes in their short arm, original arms were too long. Their outside arm could be manipulated to fit correct length original and repro lenses.

C) The workmanship was very poor, as follows:
• The original bulb wires were not replaced, they are fragile and cloth covered and at high risk for an electrical short,
• One stop piece (square tab above mounting hook) was broken, so it was soldered/silver soldered back and upon receipt immediately fell off rendering the semaphore useless,
• Hinge pins are made of brass (as is inside of hinge pin sleeve) and steps are not cut in the ends to fit into smaller holes on each side of housings. Rather the housing holes are drilled out of the housings to match the outside diameter of the brass hinge pins and no grease was applied as far as we can tell. One hinge pin was seized and the other partly seized. To stop the hinge pin from turning in the housings they are soldered to the housings on one side. Some of the solder spread onto the hinge pins inside the hinge pin sleeve. Brass tarnishes and oxidizes – you never use brass on brass. Amateur hour at its best,
• The original rubber bumpers were left in place with the consistency of cement,
• Coil covers were a little short exposing coil wires to dirt, dust and grease.
• Inside of coils were filthy,
• Bolts holding outside arm, inside long bulb holder, inside arm and lens are very dissimilar to original and 3MM, not 3.5MM.
• Bulb wires soldered to section of bulb holder normally used to hold bulb wire in place with correct solder point ¼ to ½ inch above.

3) Lastly, I see all sorts of poorly made repro lenses for sale as well as very poor condition original lenses and or semaphores.

So, to bring this to a close, I seek your input to the following questions:

----Am I just a grumpy old man?
----Is it just me who cares and or are those who care in the minority. if you check the MAJOR** seller's feedback it is disproportionately high to what i see in the quality of their parts.
----Is there interest in me sharing my detailed knowledge about semaphores and all the little variations. I started it to provide insight on why I am not a fan of Asian Repro and Hybrid semaphores but it is quite a lot of detail. I have started work on this and would email it to those interested in giving me feedback.
----I am also prepared to consider sharing my knowledge about the entire restoration process for semaphores and tips on buying them etc, including rating the repro parts available, but is there interest?

Let me and Samba watchers know what you think?

[BulliBill]

Matt, I sure miss Jeff Slater!

Bill Bowman
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Thornton VW - Stockton

Thanks for any help!

[D. Haviland]

Mediocrity will be the end of the world. i own my own business and it just drives me nuts when people who have multi-millions of dollars and they're concerned about price of having their lawn cut. You do the best possible job and some asshole will come in and undercut your price by 10 percent, do a shitty job, and somehow they keep them.

[AlteWagen]

I think you have just described the ENTIRE VW aftermarket with your post. Very few focus on factory correct and will just buy what is cheapest even after the first one breaks or fails they will buy it again. After having my own parts business 13 years ago and working in another one 6 years back has pretty much sealed the idea of opening another one due to part quality. I always sold what I used and as part quality took a nose dive I could not bring myself to recommend the crap that was available. The last shop didnt care and sold things that were true safety hazards just for the $3 profit.

These days Im all about education. An informed customer is a shady vendors worst nightmare.

Id love to see some of your tutorials which expose the problems with parts on the market. I am currently writing a book based on current engine part offerings and what you need to do to make them work.
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[EverettB]

I think the differences and what won't work and why would be interesting but pictures of originals/good repros vs bad repros is probably a necessity.
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[Matts Bug Parts]

Thank you for your replies. I am hoping for more and to BulliBill I would say Jeff Slater was for a long time the go to guy. He was kind and generous with me when I first started, shared his knowledge and techniques as well as source for some of the needed supplies, for example the bulb wire and SWF springs that go from the piston linkage to arm. Later, I bought all of his remaining spare parts when he found he was no longer able to work on semaphores.

Everett, I will likely contact you and share by work as it progresses and perhaps where it fits in with the Samba site.

My interest in this whole matter may be naive, I simply would like to see advertisers be forthright about what they are selling and customers know what it is they are getting.

I am very frank with customers on the phone and in emails but have trepidation about putting it out there on the Samba.

I am also concerned that others may think I am motivated by personal gain and want a greater share of the market etc. I can assure everyone this is not the case. If it were I would sell the Asian reproductions, I was one of the very first to see,them, and other VW parts by the manufacturer, at Technoclassica Essen. Two things stood in the way, their quality and the availability of good original units. From a business point of view it was likely a poor decision. Next, I am tiny in size and will sell everything that I have and can get in the future and am more likely to shut down than grow.

Finally, perhaps my wish to influence others and the market are misguided. I do know that perhaps sharing my knowledge may help others, and when I offer my opinions I know that others may disagree and or have different value systems that are reflected in their opinions.

Matt

[VW_Jimbo]

[sunroof]

I am counting on you Matt, I'm going to need semaphores for my '54 and I don't want cheap crap for sure. On another note: I have a Triumph TR6 that I have been working on since 2002 and I can tell you the quality of the aftermarket for Brit car parts is Terrible. I am replacing some bits for the 3rd and 4th time trying to keep my car on the road. I recently had the choice to buy an OEM horn relay for $50 or a repro for $25, I gladly paid the $50.(I'm just glad my car doesn't say Jaguar, the same relay would have been $200!)

Keep your chin up buddy!

Don
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[67 Florida Deluxe]

Matt,

I spoke with you a couple of times in late March/early April about my Swedish semaphores with the orange SWF lenses (one was shrunken from age). We had a long chat about semaphore differences, lens differences and good versus "questionable" vendors, your trips to Hershey, elsewhere, and abroad stocking up on original, authentic parts. You did not strike me as a grumpy old man. Rather you struck me as a perfectionist that had become a bit jaded by the repro crap that was being offered for sale. (Kinda the same sentiment as your post.) For one, I appreciate folks like you who truly understand their craft and want to provide the best possible service versus just hocking parts for a quick buck. I learned quite a bit from our limited chats and having a go-to semaphore expert is appreciated. I can't speak for the masses, but I prefer to have proper bits that operate properly, no matter what it is. So don't go anywhere!

(BTW, I'm still looking for an orange SWF lens for my '56 )

Kent
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OG member of the '67 Posse

A few of my toys, past and present
'56 Oval, '66 KG Conv't, '67 21-Window, '67 Bug, '79 SuperVert, '55 Pre-A Continental

[AlteWagen]

[67 Florida Deluxe]

[Dave]

, I gotta 4-letter word for that, "NEXT!"

Mines a little different. It's not a word in any dictionary, so it can't be cursing, right? I made it up, it's not real, so no harm, no foul, right? It's simply this:


F-U-G-M

pronounce it any way you wish..
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[JPB1]

Matt - you are a gem.

We've spoken many a time over this precise issue and are both amazed at what individuals like to pass off as completed and functional works.

I think it is very fair to inform, present, and future consumers of these issues.
Allowing them individually to make informed decisions.

By doing so, maybe those individuals will take responsibility, doing a better job, or just leave the hobby.

I stand by you 250%

Matt has worked on a number of sets of VW semaphores for me, I can not say high enough praise for his interactions, quality of workmanship, and then standing behind his work to ensure customer satisfaction.

That is why Matt you are a gem!

[banana split]

Many years ago Jeff Slater gave me a copy of his how to restore semaphores VHS video cassette. Unfortunately, the tape degraded over time and got thrown out. I'd love to see what your restoration process is like.
I have a box of semaphores sitting around that I know I'll never use or restore. I just like looking at them.
I do need a restored pair for my car and hope to contact you in the future for a set or discuss restoring a nice used pair that I have.
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1951 Crotch Cooler 11G Split Ragtop
1953 Zwitter
1964 Chop Top

[apexxn]

Bumping an old thread hoping for a restoration thread......or has it been posted?

[BulliBill]

[67 Florida Deluxe]

[JPB1]

I totally agree with the above statement - Matt's has done 2 sets for me, and most likely a third soon.

A man that stands behind his work.

Knowledgeable, honest, and trustworthy - he's got my business.

Aloha

[Matts Bug Parts]

Hybrid Semaphores
and
Asian Reproduction Semaphores


SOME HISTORY OF HYBRID SEMAPHORES
For some time now people have been looking to convert SHO and SWF smooth semaphores into SWF RIBBED semaphores, at least from the outside esthetics-arm painted black or body colour and lens.
The very first efforts involved using SHO smooth semaphores because they are constructed in a manner similar to SWF ribbed in that the outside arm, lens and inner bulbholder are mounted on a short inside arm. BUT there are key differences in all the pieces:
• The SHO short arm is dissimilar to the SWF ribbed short arm and so they fit poorly SWF ribbed lens and you had to file down the “posts” on the inside of the lens for a best possible fit.
• The SHO inside bulbholder must be discarded for a correct repro SWF ribbed inside bulbholder. This can even be easily made by hand.
• Because of the poor fit of the short inside arm the repro outside ribbed arm also fits poorly.
• Other parts needed to complete the work are correct bolts and nuts for the outside arm, inside arm, inside bulbholder assembly and a correct SWF lens brass bulbholder.

PRESENT STATE OF AFFAIRS:
You can now:
• Source parts from a number of vendors,
• Send your SWF smooth semaphores to vendors to convert them to SWF ribbed, or
• Buy complete SWF converted to ribbed semaphores. The vendor may use original SWF smooth cores or Asian reproduction semaphores as cores in addition to the needed reproduction SWF ribbed parts.

WHY I THINK HYBRID and ASIAN REPRODUCTION SEMAPHORES REPRESENT POOR VALUE:
• First, I want to address the issue of personal bias. I have not sought work in doing hybrid semaphores for 4 reasons:
o The lack of quality reproduction SWF ribbed parts,
o The end result if done well can be costly with the costs exceeding what I, and the market, think they are worth,
o Quality workmanship is scarce. Those who are expert in the field of semaphore restoration are not doing this work and others who do, well you be the judge for now (I will be a little later on), and
o Forthrightness of vendors. Some vendors are selling semaphores or hybrid semaphores without stating they are all reproduction.
• Second, I want to speak to the issue of personal gain. As far as personal gain, I am a damn fool for not selling the Asian reproduction semaphores and/or hybrid ones. Much money is there to be made. I was one of the first people to see the Asian reproduction F style SWF smooth semaphores. While on the surface they look OK, on closer inspection there was a WOW in the arm, the lens was short by a few MM and lens quality was poor. I know first hand of enthusiasts buying them only to buy original restored ones because of quality issues. One common problem is separation of the hinge pin sleeve from the semaphore arm.
• Next, original SWF and SHO semaphores are cool, any and all of them, and if you can’t afford SWF ribbed or SHO grooved semaphores then run with a good quality smooth set.
• There are also technical issues when considering a conversion. For original ribbed semaphores the rubber bumper mount is higher than SWF smooth AL, B and D series. Therefore, using SWF AL, B and D series coils means the lens sits lower and there is a risk the brass lens bulb holder rests on the power contact plate bolt. Lastly, this disrupts the “tune” of the semaphore. The semaphore is meant to rise when powered on and remain closed all other times. BUT, wind forces as you drive, naturally want to lift up the semaphore. Both SWF and SHO designed a stop mechanism. On the SWF semaphore it is a square piece of metal as part of the housing that the tip of the linkage between piston and arm rests. The lower rubber bumper messes this up and many “builders” struggle to set this up correctly.
• There are lots of good original semaphores still available, especially SWF and SHO smooth.

Semaphore FAQ - General

How do they work?
Semaphores are operated by a push/pull solenoid that pulls on a piston connected to the arm and lens assembly.
The upward rise of the arm is cushioned by a spring so that the action is not too strong. When the semaphore is
completely extended from the side of the car, the pointed end of the piston touches a metal contact sending a signal
to the light bulb inside your speedometer confirming that your turn indicator is on. The semaphore arm retracts into
its pocket in the side of the car under the force of gravity and a small return spring when the turn signal switch is
turned off.
What color should the arms be?
The arms were generally painted body color; however, the arms of replacement semaphores purchased at the dealership were black. Search forums for some possible excepotions

What is the difference between SWF and SHO?
SWF and SHO are two different manufacturers of semaphores. Parts are not interchangeable.

What is the difference between ribbed and grooved semaphores?
Ribbed semaphores were made by SWF and grooved semaphores by SHO. These two types are often confused but you can tell the difference by the:
* SWF or SHO logos on the underside of the body and/or on the lenses.
* Part numbers on the underside of the body and/or on the lenses and referring to the chart above.
* Look of the arm. For ribbed semaphores, visualize a flat surface. On the outside edges of the ribbed arm material has been added (a rib) above the flat surface of the arm. For grooved semaphores, visualize a flat surface. On the outside edges of the grooved arm material has been removed (a groove or channel) from below the flat surface of the arm.

Semaphore FAQ - Troubleshooting
Why don't my semaphores rise properly? (They rise slowly, bind or don't rise at all).
Recommended steps:
1. Ensure that the semaphore is centered in the semaphore post. It may bind by rubbing on the side of the body post (not centered left to right) or may bind on the bottom or top of the post (not centered top to bottom).
2. Remove semaphore and inspect the piston-it may be rusty or very dirty-if so, it must be replace or cleaned.
3. Check tension of return spring because it may be too great. This is the spring that is on the side of the semaphore and winds around the hinge pin.
4. Check all moving parts and linkages by slowly moving the arm up and down to see if any part is binding or catching. Sometimes the pin that goes through the tail of the piston is offset and catches, other times the link between the piston and the piston tail is bent and catches or binds.

Can I operate semaphores on 12 volts?

This topic is covered in an article in the June 1997 issue of "Hot VWs". I strongly encourage running your semaphores on 6 volts if it is at all possible. If you must use 12 volts, your options are:
* Install 12-volt, 3-watt semaphore bulbs and you are done! The main downside is that the push/pull solenoid may quickly get hot and possibly burn out. If you choose this option, don't leave the semaphores "up" for long.
* Install a 12-volt to 6-volt step down reducer. A key drawback is the heat produced by the device. It must be safely mounted well away from any other wiring, parts or person that could be damaged or hurt by the heat KYMCO Motorsports in Costa Mesa, California carries reducers including a step down adjustable type reducer.

[Jap]

Hello All,
I’m in the process of making my own scratch built semaphores by copying a SWF semaphore that I’ve been given to strip. I know it’s a ball ache to do but I just can’t seem to find any that are in great condition and so I’ve decided to make my own. Today I made what I would call the main base of the unit. I have striped out everything including counting the windings on the coil and ordered the correct AWG copper wire , copper tube, Bakelite sheet, differenti thickness steel and brass plate. I have one big question that is bugging me. How is the armature with the spring pin made. Is the end a soldered or peened over tube?
If any of this has been answered already sorry for asking again .
Regards,
Peter