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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9937
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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 Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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Yes, the new brace ends must be solidly attached of course.
When you cut off the majority of the existing C pillar arch it leaves behind end stubs that have a hole with a rectangular cross section.
The newly twinned 1" box tubes also form a similar rectangle and can slide inside the rectangular holes of the stubs. It is a loose fit, so slide one end in too deeply first, swing the other end into place, and slide it back so both ends are part way into their stubs.
Of course you must measure things before you make the final cut to the arches to ensure the size of the rectangle is ok and that the height of the new brace is satisfactory. You can cut slots in the stubs to allow adjustment to the rectangular hole before fitting and welding in the rectangular brace.
Mark |
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16505
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Yes, the new brace ends must be solidly attached of course.
When you cut off the majority of the existing C pillar arch it leaves behind end stubs that have a hole with a rectangular cross section.
The newly twinned 1" box tubes also form a similar rectangle and can slide inside the rectangular holes of the stubs. It is a loose fit, so slide one end in too deeply first, swing the other end into place, and slide it back so both ends are part way into their stubs.
Of course you must measure things before you make the final cut to the arches to ensure the size of the rectangle is ok and that the height of the new brace is satisfactory. You can cut slots in the stubs to allow adjustment to the rectangular hole before fitting and welding in the rectangular brace.
Mark |
I really like the sounds of this technique. This would work good on a high top conversion if you wanted the same headroom as a westy bed top would give...
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9937
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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I used this approach over 20 years ago to allow a Westy 2 person upper bed to fit in my friends Syncro after I added a West top and Westy interior. We were focused on adequate weight support and basic functionality of a stockish upper bed for his large family on Baja trips. Ever since I've been wanting to refine the approach and I may do so "soon". I've learned a lot in the meantime and would focus on better aesthetics of the end result than was achieved in that case.
Mark |
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charleslabri
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2019
Posts: 615
Location: Nashville/Yosemite
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: hack job westy conversion |
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This makes a lot of sense. I was planning on using 1x square bar, but the 2x square bar makes sense for extra extra.
Angle iron, yes.
On the rear and sides, i was thinking of tacking in another three runs of angle iron for supports to the top bed. Youre saying I should flip the angle iron OVER and bolt the bed in from the top for a more polished look?
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
My suggestion for the flat new cross brace:
Just use 2 runs of 1" square tubing, welded together flat.
Make them long enough for each end to insert into the cutoff end holes of the old arch.
Add 1" angle iron to the rear side of the rear square tube, almost all the way across.
The lip of the angle iron forms the support for the front edge of the main bed plywood and and the angle iron as a whole helps stiffen the brace.
The perimeter of the new hole in the roof skin forms the support for the other 3 sides of the main plywood.
Overlap the 3 roof skin edges 1.5" OVER the plywood and bolt the plywood to the skin, below the skin.
Having the plywood be below the roof skin edges helps the new flat ceiling over the lower bed/bench look more finished from below.
Mark
| charleslabri wrote: |
Sorry, maybe I wasn’t super clear (I get all in my own vanagon head).
I have a pop top already, wanted to mount it back on. But I hated camping in it and losing all that clearance up top.
I want to cut the C pillar brace, and fabricate a new one that’s straight and mounts to the old brace joints. Then I’d cut the top skin off and weld L brackets to hold the wood where the bed would be.
I’ll draw this up. Track it here for posterity |
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charleslabri
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2019
Posts: 615
Location: Nashville/Yosemite
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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any pics of your gen1 design?
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
I used this approach over 20 years ago to allow a Westy 2 person upper bed to fit in my friends Syncro after I added a West top and Westy interior. We were focused on adequate weight support and basic functionality of a stockish upper bed for his large family on Baja trips. Ever since I've been wanting to refine the approach and I may do so "soon". I've learned a lot in the meantime and would focus on better aesthetics of the end result than was achieved in that case.
Mark |
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charleslabri
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2019
Posts: 615
Location: Nashville/Yosemite
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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| Also, did you weld a temp brace to help from the roof folding when you cut C pillar? |
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charleslabri
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2019
Posts: 615
Location: Nashville/Yosemite
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: hack job westy conversion |
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why not tack angle irons on the other 3 sides?
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
My suggestion for the flat new cross brace:
Just use 2 runs of 1" square tubing, welded together flat.
Make them long enough for each end to insert into the cutoff end holes of the old arch.
Add 1" angle iron to the rear side of the rear square tube, almost all the way across.
The lip of the angle iron forms the support for the front edge of the main bed plywood and and the angle iron as a whole helps stiffen the brace.
The perimeter of the new hole in the roof skin forms the support for the other 3 sides of the main plywood.
Overlap the 3 roof skin edges 1.5" OVER the plywood and bolt the plywood to the skin, below the skin.
Having the plywood be below the roof skin edges helps the new flat ceiling over the lower bed/bench look more finished from below.
Mark
| charleslabri wrote: |
Sorry, maybe I wasn’t super clear (I get all in my own vanagon head).
I have a pop top already, wanted to mount it back on. But I hated camping in it and losing all that clearance up top.
I want to cut the C pillar brace, and fabricate a new one that’s straight and mounts to the old brace joints. Then I’d cut the top skin off and weld L brackets to hold the wood where the bed would be.
I’ll draw this up. Track it here for posterity |
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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9937
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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I wouldn't because they are not needed and because I want the plywood to be the lowest piece and the only one that shows from below.
The brace is what carries most of the weight of people lying on the upper bed, as well as the folded over bed section where sleepers heads and chests are. Legs and feet don't weigh much.
Mark |
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charleslabri
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2019
Posts: 615
Location: Nashville/Yosemite
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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this is what im thinking:
Now, it seems that id want my lowest point to be the brace, otherwise up top youd be sleeping on the brace?
Im not sure i follow folding the skin over.. i was planning on tack welding 3/4" angle iron here on the side for example, and having the ply be flat on top with the C pillar support
obvi this is my napkin-math to build this out here.
What do you think?
also, what are the dimensions of the front (closer to the front of the vehicle) plywood? I was watching videos of westys and it seems to fold over into the back bed area and JUST nearly miss hitting the pop-top. |
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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9937
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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No folding of the skin. Just bolt the plywood under the roof skin, with bolts up through the skin around the perimeter.
Your drawing shows the brace angle iron upside down from my idea.
The ply plus the thickness of the angle iron is nearly the same thickness as the square tube new brace. Put them at the same level, so the top of the ply is close to flush with the top of the brace. That is why the angle iron is part of the brace, so the plywood is supported by it. The angle iron of the brace is UNDER the plywood in my concept.
Yes, the hinged front section just barely clears the fiberglass top when you flip it. So getting the brace at the right height for this to work is key.
Mark
Last edited by crazyvwvanman on Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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OzzieJo
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2015
Posts: 251
Location: NSW, Australia
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OzzieJo
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2015
Posts: 251
Location: NSW, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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Donor ... not do our  |
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SyncroHead 
Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2005
Posts: 1145
Location: Northern Nevada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
No folding of the skin. Just bolt the plywood under the roof skin, with bolts up through the skin around the perimeter.
Your drawing shows the brace angle iron upside down from my idea.
The ply plus the thickness of the angle iron is nearly the same thickness as the square tube new brace. Put them at the same level, so the top of the ply is close to flush with the top of the brace. That is why the angle iron is part of the brace, so the plywood is supported by it. The angle iron of the brace is UNDER the plywood in my concept.
Yes, the hinged front section just barely clears the fiberglass top when you flip it. So getting the brace at the right height for this to work is key.
Mark |
Mark,
Is this close to what you're describing?
Jim Davis
_________________
"A Vanagon? It's not a car or a van. It's a hobby!"
Check out:
www.VANAVATION.com
www.SyncroSafari.org and
www.Vanagons.org
| sphet wrote: |
| I have *no* idea what the previous owner carried in his Westy... angry donkeys? |
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charleslabri
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2019
Posts: 615
Location: Nashville/Yosemite
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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This is what I was thinking
| SyncroHead wrote: |
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
No folding of the skin. Just bolt the plywood under the roof skin, with bolts up through the skin around the perimeter.
Your drawing shows the brace angle iron upside down from my idea.
The ply plus the thickness of the angle iron is nearly the same thickness as the square tube new brace. Put them at the same level, so the top of the ply is close to flush with the top of the brace. That is why the angle iron is part of the brace, so the plywood is supported by it. The angle iron of the brace is UNDER the plywood in my concept.
Yes, the hinged front section just barely clears the fiberglass top when you flip it. So getting the brace at the right height for this to work is key.
Mark |
Mark,
Is this close to what you're describing?
Jim Davis |
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pbrown
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2008
Posts: 443
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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You might want to engineer the hinge so that there is a 2"-3" gap, when folded, so that you can have a space for the mattress. The factory Westy comes that way.
I have my top off and completely disassembled if you want some photos to mimic.
_________________
Patrick Brown
1986 Westy Syncro EJ25
Flickr --> https://flic.kr/s/aHsmQNUXEF |
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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9937
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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Thanks for the drawing Jim. That is the idea for the brace. But as mentioned the hinge needs to be different to allow room for the sections of mattress pad to be sandwiched between the plywood pieces when the bed is stowed. Westfalia used what I would call an articulated hinge.
Mark |
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charleslabri
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2019
Posts: 615
Location: Nashville/Yosemite
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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Ah yes. Anyone sell those hinges?
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Thanks for the drawing Jim. That is the idea for the brace. But as mentioned the hinge needs to be different to allow room for the sections of mattress pad to be sandwiched between the plywood pieces when the bed is stowed. Westfalia used what I would call an articulated hinge.
Mark |
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16505
Location: Brookeville, MD
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charleslabri
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2019
Posts: 615
Location: Nashville/Yosemite
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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interesting idea. i could make the cuts perfect size for the matress so it sits super flat
| dobryan wrote: |
| You could add a piano hinge to the top of the bed board 3 or 4" from the first hinge so that the top bed board can have two 90's vs a 180 when it is folded. |
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SyncroHead
Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2005
Posts: 1145
Location: Northern Nevada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Hack job Westy conversion |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Thanks for the drawing Jim. That is the idea for the brace. But as mentioned the hinge needs to be different to allow room for the sections of mattress pad to be sandwiched between the plywood pieces when the bed is stowed. Westfalia used what I would call an articulated hinge.
Mark |
Yes. The picture I made would only work for using the upper area for storage, not for a pad and sleeping.
Here's a raised hinge idea that also won't work because it places the top of the hinge at the top surface of the pad. (Pad not pictured.) Not satisfactory.
Here's a two-hinge concept, but when folded it won't allow enough length for both foam pads to be long enough to cover the whole platform. It also places the folding platform about 4" away from the brace, a pretty weak arrangement. Not satisfactory.
Looking at the original Westy's arrangement more carefully, it seems to use a combination of these concepts - two raised hinge points with a bridge between. One one either side of the platform, not running across the platform.
Does anyone know of a commercially available hinge that mimic's the Westy's?
Another thought... What if there were no hinge at all and the extension part of the bed were simply lifted up and slid on top of the stationary part?
Jim Davis
_________________
"A Vanagon? It's not a car or a van. It's a hobby!"
Check out:
www.VANAVATION.com
www.SyncroSafari.org and
www.Vanagons.org
| sphet wrote: |
| I have *no* idea what the previous owner carried in his Westy... angry donkeys? |
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