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Large capacity single port
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DANP85
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:01 am    Post subject: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

Hey all, i’m looking to build a stock looking single carb single port engine for my oval window beetle that is a weekend cruiser around town and occasionally sees the highway. A 1776 looks like a good engine. What’s the biggest I can go before the carb and heads choke the engine too much at higher rpm? Thanks!
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Dan Ruddock
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:10 am    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

A stock engine is too big for the stock carb/manifold and sp heads Shocked

Seriously though, any increase in displacement is going to reduce the rev range so go conservative if you want any kind of top end. A performance cam will not fix it. You will end up with a tractor motor with anything big. Dan
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:16 am    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

I personally wouldn't waste the money building anything larger than a 1600 if your limit is stock carb & stock exhaust

A stock carb isn't big enough for a stock engine. VW's were way under carbed from the factory.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

If I wanted to have that look I would build a biger induction system.possiable a hidden twin port...or atleast extend the runner's in the heads and biger intake&crab. you can build a 2387 for it if you wish. there are also some other brand single barrell carbs or single injection systems that will feed it...
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evanfrucht
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

You could go single carb and maybe switch it up to dual port heads with an original single carb dual port mainfold. It would look closer to stock than dual carbs and you could go 1776 or even bigger and have a fun torquey engine for street driving. You could find a vintage carb that looks similar to original. There are ways to make it look semi correct.

Like eveyone said the original carb, intake and heads are pretty much useless if you want make the engine bigger. You wont get that improvement in performance you're looking for.

You say its an Oval, what year is the engine?

Is it an original 36hp or did someone stick a 1200 or 1500 in there?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

If you're really going to do it, I'd keep the stock bore and stroke it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

Maybe Alstrup will be along shorty to tell you about the latest single port engine he built. It was a 1776 (I think) with empi alu end pieces and the cb center section with a 34 PICT with enlarged venturi. Also a CB2280 cam with 1.25 rockers on the intake. Of course plenty of head work, optimized exhaust and ignition system, better cooling etc. The result was an impressive 84hp (66kW) at 4100 RPM and 154 NM (116 ft/lbs.) with a very flat torque curve, if I remember correctly.

So that should give you an idea of what is achievable with a single port head if one knows exactly what he is doing. Mind you, 99% of "builders" would not get this kind of performance out of a 1776 single port with one single Solex carb.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

I worked on finishing touches for an engine for a friend with a single port 1776 and an H30/31PICT carb on it, his whole reasoning being that he literally wanted everything to just bolt together, without any adapters or dual carb "nonsense" as he puts it. He runs a vintage speed sport muffler, so that the tailpipes come out of the right places. He loves it- It averages about 33MPG on the highway in a 67 beetle. It's an around town cruiser, and a long drive sort of car, no racing or showing off.

It runs a CB2280 cam, late carbureted paper-element aircleaner with all preheat set up correctly, and an original 205L SVDA that I cleaned up for him. The SVDA works well using the angled port on the rear of the H30/31 that I believe was originally intended for either autostick purposes or a throttle emissions valve of some sort. When he ran an original "good" 009 the car was only getting 28MPG or so.

It's a great economical type of build for someone that isn't chasing every little bit of power. Of course, dual port is "better" but single ports are fun too.

I have a set of very nice single port heads in storage for an eventual project similar to this. Probably with dual single carbs.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

Big singleports can be great engines.
As you increase the displacement you will need to use higher gearing and/or larger diameter intake and carburetor.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

What Stefan wrote.

Only built a few 1600´s and 1680´s back in the days with the stock 15/1600 carb and intake. At the time we had "problems" getting much past 63 hp if the engine should idle decent.
With the CB/Empi center section, 34 Solex and Empi end castings its a whole different matter.
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Lingwendil
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

I wonder if Performance workshop (Steve/Greg Tims) would be willing to do a Superstock head based on the AA singleport casting? Seems like 37x32 would be an interesting starting point.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

DANP85 wrote:
Hey all, i’m looking to build a stock looking single carb single port engine for my oval window beetle that is a weekend cruiser around town and occasionally sees the highway. A 1776 looks like a good engine. What’s the biggest I can go before the carb and heads choke the engine too much at higher rpm? Thanks!


I think you'd be fine opening up a 1500cc or 1600cc SP engine to 1776cc. One issue is you'd need more ir, like vented lid, lid standoffs, or tennis ball trick.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

Lingwendil wrote:
I wonder if Performance workshop (Steve/Greg Tims) would be willing to do a Superstock head based on the AA singleport casting? Seems like 37x32 would be an interesting starting point.


Thrme 35.5mm intake valve is plenty large for whatever a SP head can supply. No need for a 37.
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DANP85
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

Thanks heaps for the comments so far. The car is all original with it's original 36hp. I want something with more pep for modern traffic, a close to original look and to surprise other cars on the road when I take off at the lights.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

DANP85 wrote:
Thanks heaps for the comments so far. The car is all original with it's original 36hp. I want something with more pep for modern traffic, a close to original look and to surprise other cars on the road when I take off at the lights.

If you're still running the original split case transaxle, you might want to keep in mind it won't tolerate much more than a stock 36hp for long.
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DANP85
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

Thanks mukluk for the concern, I don't ever dump the clutch at the lights or smash through gears on upshift. I take time with shifts and usually just ease into the power to help preserve the clutch, mounts, gearbox etc. so I hope it will last a bit longer that way.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

Not much of a recipe for surprising other cars when you take off at the lights then, is it? Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

mukluk, true! Oh well, i'm sure it'll still surprise them enough when i'm side by side with them going down the road, lol!
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

Does your oval Beetle still have the H rear apron? 6 V system? Will you keep the 6 V with the upcoming SP engine?

33 years ago I bought a '56 Sunroof Beetle. It already had a 1300 SP engine, but that seized on me within a few months. I swapped a freshly built 1600 SP single carb engine that a friend built me a few years before from my Ghia, since I wanted to build my first engine for the Ghia myself based on a freebie 1600 dual-port. For the transplant into the oval, I also wanted to keep an older appearance. I installed an OG 36 hp fan shroud, drilled the shroud for the cooling air flaps from the 1600 so that I could use the bellows-type thermostat, and "somehow" adapted some 40 hp stale air cooling tins which were fine with the 36 hp shroud. I converted the '56 to 12 V, and installed the 12 V voltage regulator on top of the 12 V generator so that it was like the 6 V VR. I sold the car a few years later, and the new owner drove it until only a few years ago as an occasional hobby car.

If you keep your car 6 V, you'll have a starter gear mismatch with the SP engine's 12 V flywheel that has more teeth/closer together than those on the 6 V FW. You might be able to find the rare factory FW that used the O-ring type seal against the crankshaft but still had the 109 teeth.

The transmission on my '56 had already been converted to a full-syncro unit by the PO, but I did need to grind out the bellhousing slightly to fit the 1600 SP. I used an automatic stick shift starter which does not need the starter bushing in the transmission.

I also remember the challenge to get the SP engine into the car with its H apron. Very tight fit because the engine is longer and wider than the 36 hp. The H apron's upper contour comes up higher, so that you have less longitudinal free distance than on non-H aprons as of 1961.

If you use the doghouse shroud with its 2 fresh air outlets that go into the 1500-1600 style heater boxes, you'll also run into a problem during installation. The oval's engine firewall bottom edge curves down more than on fresh-air engined bodies, so that there is not enough room for the fresh air heater boxes to clear the bottom of the firewall edge. You need to install the engine with the HB off, then attach them with the engine fully bolted in. Not hard to do, but the hardest nut to fasten is the upper exhaust nut on the right head. No room to swing a normal wrench due to the starter. What I ended up using was the "banana"-curved 13 mm wrench for a carburetor to manifold.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:50 am    Post subject: Re: Large capacity single port Reply with quote

I have a 1600cc stock cam carb heads exhaust and on the engine dyno achieved 60HP @ 7000 feet elevation. So I would imagine with a different cam head work larger carb one could get 75 hp. So it is possible.
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