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Which bare head casting to start with?
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DerrickfromNC1
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:17 pm    Post subject: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

If you were to start with a bare head casting and build/port it for this engine how would you go. Current engine is a 2332 with a 86b webcam, 48dells and a set of early 1st gen 044s. Engine has yet to be cranked but lím already planning ahead to go turbo. The blowthru turbo version will include upgraded heads and thickwall 92s. If I donít go with an off the shelf head like CB Perf mini wedges then :
which or whose bare head casting would you recommend?
what valve size and brand
which or whose retainers and keepers
which or whose valve springs
who to do machine work and porting

I want to place an emphasis on reliability in addition to performance. Iím thinking the best casting to start with would be a set of MOFOCOs and maybe Steve Timms to do the porting and machine work. What are your recommendations?

Thanks
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DerrickfromNC1
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

I should also add....could what you are recommending be done for under $1200 excluding the cost of match porting the intakes?

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Dan Ruddock
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

I would ask the porter you choose. Also you will need to say yes or no to turbo, chambers will be different.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

I think the question is not who should you use but whoís can you get. I know in my industry everything that was coming out of China is a problem. At least I think Mofoco heads are cast here in the US.
Now I donít know the history of Mofoco with turbo engines but I do know CB performance has been doing it for 30 years that I know of and even manufacture turbo kits. To be fair Mofoco has been around as long as I can remember as well and Iíve done business with them and Iíve been very happy. Iím not trying to say one is better than the other itís all subjective. There are plenty of engine combinations running around all over the world with all sorts of different things that run just fine.

To me, turbos are alien technology, so if I were to get one, I would have it built and delivered turnkey. Personally Iím still trying to get a 2276 to run below 220 oil temp and 400 head temp. I canít imagine putting a turbo on it, my foot is in it way too much.
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DerrickfromNC1
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

My fav off the shelf heads for this engine are the:

CB CNC mini wedge
CB CNC ultra mag plus
CB Panchitos

Roy at MOFOCO mentioned in several post last year about an all new higher flowing as cast 050 that would be out this year. I check his site regularly for info on this head but have no heard anything. Whatís going MOFOCO?

Also whose using those DRD/EMPI heads?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

DerrickfromNC1 wrote:
My fav off the shelf heads for this engine are the:

Also whose using those DRD/EMPI heads?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

I would say panchios if you want a good driver with good power. Wedge port if your looking for every last hp.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

Agreed
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:05 am    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

The Mofoco heads have a lot of meat to them.
I'm sure they could sort you some bare castings out to give you all the options you're after
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

CB mini wedge or wedge....

no one is going to start with bare castings and custom port and match manifold in your $1200 limit.

IF avail is tight getting wedge ports, I do have one set on hand cut for 94's...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

vwinnovator wrote:
CB mini wedge or wedge....

no one is going to start with bare castings and custom port and match manifold in your $1200 limit.

IF avail is tight getting wedge ports, I do have one set on hand cut for 94's...


Performance workshop (Steve & Greg Tims) can get close, I'd give them a call.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:35 am    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

Lingwendil wrote:
vwinnovator wrote:
CB mini wedge or wedge....

no one is going to start with bare castings and custom port and match manifold in your $1200 limit.

IF avail is tight getting wedge ports, I do have one set on hand cut for 94's...


Performance workshop (Steve & Greg Tims) can get close, I'd give them a call.


X2, I would prepare for a wait as Steve had some health issues and got behind. Dan
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vwinnovator
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:52 am    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

Dan Ruddock wrote:
Lingwendil wrote:
vwinnovator wrote:
CB mini wedge or wedge....

no one is going to start with bare castings and custom port and match manifold in your $1200 limit.

IF avail is tight getting wedge ports, I do have one set on hand cut for 94's...


Performance workshop (Steve & Greg Tims) can get close, I'd give them a call.


X2, I would prepare for a wait as Steve had some health issues and got behind. Dan


they list their street warrior heads about $1400 without manifolds....
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

vwinnovator wrote:
Dan Ruddock wrote:
Lingwendil wrote:
vwinnovator wrote:
CB mini wedge or wedge....

no one is going to start with bare castings and custom port and match manifold in your $1200 limit.

IF avail is tight getting wedge ports, I do have one set on hand cut for 94's...


Performance workshop (Steve & Greg Tims) can get close, I'd give them a call.


X2, I would prepare for a wait as Steve had some health issues and got behind. Dan


they list their street warrior heads about $1400 without manifolds....


The stage 1's or 2's are $775-900 which is in the range of the OP's needs. Manifold port matching is included. Dan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:05 am    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

Dan Ruddock wrote:
Lingwendil wrote:
vwinnovator wrote:
CB mini wedge or wedge....

no one is going to start with bare castings and custom port and match manifold in your $1200 limit.

IF avail is tight getting wedge ports, I do have one set on hand cut for 94's...


Performance workshop (Steve & Greg Tims) can get close, I'd give them a call.


X2, I would prepare for a wait as Steve had some health issues and got behind. Dan


As of the beginning of this week when I spoke to Greg he stated that ported heads are running a six week lead time or so, but they were beginning to get caught up. My super stock heads should be about two weeks or so since I'm just getting machine work but no porting

To OP- I highly recommend that you at least give them a call. Greg is very easy to talk to and won't jump all over you when you try to tell them what you want/need like some places.
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Brian_e
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:13 am    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

I have bare AA500's, bare Mofoco 042's, and the new CB 044's all on hand.

The AA's are super light, and kinda thin in spots with a 35mm exhaust valve. They need LOTS of work out of the box. The price reflects this. The casting flash is minimal. I have never even bothered to clean it out. I have built quite a few engines with these heads, and once all the work is done, they can be some pretty good heads.

The Mofoco 042's are quite a bit heavier, and the castings are way nicer than the AA heads. The ports are decent shaped out of the box, and the bowls are decent, but mine came with huge undercuts under the seats. The casting flash is a little worse than the AA, but not terrible. They should flow better than the AA out of the box, but I haven't had them on the flow bench yet.

The new CB 044 are really heavy, and the casting is amazing. Zero casting flash. The bare head ports aren't shaped as nice as the mofoco's But still way better than the AA. The new 044 chamber is the new heart shape, and CB has done a bunch of CFD research making the new chambers. Personally I think this new chamber is lights years ahead of the other VW chambers.

Pretty sure you aren't getting any decent hand ported heads for under $1500 from anyone who knows what they are doing unless they are built on China castings.

For the money, the Panchitos really are killer heads. Small port volume, and super efficient CFD ports. They aren't the perfect head for everything like some seem to think, but for 2000-2276cc big torque engines, they are really really good. The non-cnc versions need a bunch of work in the chamber. Without, they choke a little early on the flow bench. Scroll through the CB engine builds and see some of the numbers they are getting with them, and the very different combos they are used on.

If you need a 2332cc head that will rev higher than 6000rpm, I think the CNC wedgeport is the next option. It has a smaller port volume than the others, and the flow it still way up there.

These are just my observations from what I have seen and heald in my hands.

Brian
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

Brian, have you had your hands on the new Autolinea 043 casting yet? Im wondering what it weighs in at and quality of the casting/hardware. From the pics the casting looks WAY better than the old GO1 version. What port design did they use and location within the casting (VW 043 vs 040). Usually the hardware is trash but also wondering if they are still using the soft seats too.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

AA500 casting are what pretty much everyone gets if they want to port there own heads.

Tims ported heads are AA500 castings, and should not need any more work

Mofoco 050 doesnt really need porting work, it has a larger ports and is designed to flow as good as a ported head, "out of the box"

CB heads are made by Autolinea in Brazil, and then machined by CB in house

Thats all I really know. Everyone has there own favorite brand they use.

I bought some AA500's with 35 x 40 valves and ported them myself. They are almost done and I am happy with the job I did thus far. I have opened up the ports to 65cc so far and might take a couple more out.

Personally, if you are going to port them, I would not buy more expensive heads than the AA

Also, depending on the rest of your engine combo you might need either beehive springs or dual springs. I got my set of bee hives from a member here, Dan Ruddock. A spring set will come with retainers/keepers, etc. Any stainless steel valves from a reputable supplier should be ok.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

Brian_e wrote:

The Mofoco 042's are quite a bit heavier, and the castings are way nicer than the AA heads. The ports are decent shaped out of the box, and the bowls are decent, but mine came with huge undercuts under the seats. The casting flash is a little worse than the AA, but not terrible. They should flow better than the AA out of the box, but I haven't had them on the flow bench yet.
I did. On a customers set of heads Out of the box they flowed about the advetised numbers, but the port velocity suffered in the bowl due to the huge ledge over the seats. Also the exhaust port velocity could be better. The ports are too large at the exit. I got a set for a customer w.o. valves. I made a 41 mm valve that fit the seat with a proper seat to valve relation, filled up the ledge and gave the seats a good 4 angle cut and gained 10 cfm, without touching the chamber.

The new CB 044 are really heavy, and the casting is amazing. Zero casting flash. The bare head ports aren't shaped as nice as the mofoco's But still way better than the AA. The new 044 chamber is the new heart shape, and CB has done a bunch of CFD research making the new chambers. Personally I think this new chamber is lights years ahead of the other VW chambers.

Pretty sure you aren't getting any decent hand ported heads for under $1500 from anyone who knows what they are doing unless they are built on China castings.

For the money, the Panchitos really are killer heads. Small port volume, and super efficient CFD ports. They aren't the perfect head for everything like some seem to think, but for 2000-2276cc big torque engines, they are really really good. The non-cnc versions need a bunch of work in the chamber. Without, they choke a little early on the flow bench. Scroll through the CB engine builds and see some of the numbers they are getting with them, and the very different combos they are used on.

If you need a 2332cc head that will rev higher than 6000rpm, I think the CNC wedgeport is the next option. It has a smaller port volume than the others, and the flow it still way up there.

These are just my observations from what I have seen and heald in my hands.

Brian

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Which bare head casting to start with? Reply with quote

My only choices for heads..CB 044 castings are the best I have seen and machined. The material is very nice..closest I have seen the VW factory parts. The rest machine like potmetal. I don't like them.

The Brazilian 040 castings -also very good. A?nd the the original 041 castings -Brazilians too-. These castings have the best material.

Last - the original VW German 040 castings.

If am building a motor for me, I will convert 040/041 castings for big valves. run Manleys. I used many Italian valves from GeneBerg back in the day..still have some NOS from the 80's NOt sure the quality of aftermarket valves now.

043s - I am not a fan. If they intake guide bosses are missing, you can keep them. They will not go on my engines. Very Happy
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