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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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 Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:52 am Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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Better than finding that out on startup....
Loctite 518 is a anaerobic sealer used in matched parts. I’m sure Don knows that one well, being Swedish
Just finished a head gasket on a 1998 V70 last night for a friend
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cmonSTART
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Joined: July 15, 2014
Posts: 1915
Location: NH
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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| SGKent wrote: |
looking for "any" determined by parking on a concrete floor.
What CommonStart use for the 50K engine? Park on a concrete floor? |
Just normal Permatex Aviation Sealer. No concrete floor - can't afford one due to spending all my money on my Bus.
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de K1IGS |
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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| cmonSTART wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
looking for "any" determined by parking on a concrete floor.
What CommonStart use for the 50K engine? Park on a concrete floor? |
Just normal Permatex Aviation Sealer. No concrete floor - can't afford one due to spending all my money on my Bus. |
Without a concrete floor one won't see the drips - now there is another solution. Just move to a home with dirt parking.
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cmonSTART
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Joined: July 15, 2014
Posts: 1915
Location: NH
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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Ignorance is bliss!
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babysnakes
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Joined: August 19, 2008
Posts: 7107
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Without a concrete floor one won't see the drips. |
I have a asphalt driveway and it does a pretty good job of laughing at my leaks. I have about 55k on this engine. I read a page somewhere on this site and followed the instructions. Aviation Permatex here, Curil T there,some other goop in another place ect. I did not have a single drop escape for 20-25 thousand miles. I was so proud. Then a drop,then a few more.  |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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| babysnakes wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| Without a concrete floor one won't see the drips. |
I have a asphalt driveway and it does a pretty good job of laughing at my leaks. I have about 55k on this engine. I read a page somewhere on this site and followed the instructions. Aviation Permatex here, Curil T there,some other goop in another place ect. I did not have a single drop escape for 20-25 thousand miles. I was so proud. Then a drop,then a few more. |
that has been my experience so many times on bus motors. I do believe it is the stress that bus engines experience. I have even pulled them out and re-torqued them. All that ever did for me on T1 motors was eventually pull studs out and shorten the life between builds.
On the Yamabond, Sububond, Hondabond, etc., I read one article written by someone in the VW world who tried it and they said they had good luck. Then someone else said that it did the same as other sealants to them - that compared to other engines, VW cases have less cross bolting than many other engines that Threebond sealants are used on so the VW cases fret more. I don't know. All the engines I've built were balanced to minimize fretting. Someone needs to invent a channel in the case with a zerk fitting where sealant gets pumped in occasionally........ in fact it could be like those boat trailer wheel bearings - you pump it in until a spring loads and then it slowly oozes sealant. It can be like the high temp plastic tar like substance that drops to the floor under Hondas and Acuras when the cam tower sealant gets soft and drips to the floor. Then a new patch would be needed that says, my car dribbles Honda sealant...... 
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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Robbie - you know Adrian I think. Based on what 71whitewesty said, see if he will tell you what he uses. That said, based on some of the engines in threads over the years that went back to him out of the crate, I am not sure he is always successful.
Still waiting for Ray to post on the 4 msds I posted to get his brief opinion.
Maybe it has more to do with how much sealant squeezes out on the inside of the case to stop future oil leaks.
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timvw7476
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Joined: June 03, 2013
Posts: 2206
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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| babysnakes wrote: |
| I have no first hand experience, but I have read the old timers used a single string of dental floss on the case parting line as a gasket. It sounds sketchy to me. They just like to mark their spot. Seems like they have a competition with old Harleys. |
Someone needs to try the old aviation 'OO' sized silk thread along the perimeter
& report back. |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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At one point I had a link to the sealant list for what Jake used. Don't know if such would be available from the Type 4 Store or not.
It would be interesting to try teflon paste on the parting seam, but I will let someone else do the experimenting. |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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At one point I had a link to the sealant list for what Jake used. Don't know if such would be available from the Type 4 Store or not.
It would be interesting to try teflon paste on the parting seam, but I will let someone else do the experimenting. |
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orwell84
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Joined: May 14, 2007
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Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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| Every so often I come across discussions about torquing the case and heads...that basically the specs in the Bentley don’t represent how it was torqued at the factory. There are also a lot of places Type 4 engines can leak. From my own experience, it’s not from the case halves. Usually push rod tube seals, rocker cover gaskets, dipstick tube, oil filler flange as I know you realize. I had a persistent oil cooler leak once. I have learned to live with small leaks. On my current build I will be paying a lot of attention to properly sealing the things mentioned above. The case halves probably worry me the least. |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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| orwell84 wrote: |
| Every so often I come across discussions about torquing the case and heads...that basically the specs in the Bentley don’t represent how it was torqued at the factory. There are also a lot of places Type 4 engines can leak. From my own experience, it’s not from the case halves. Usually push rod tube seals, rocker cover gaskets, dipstick tube, oil filler flange as I know you realize. I had a persistent oil cooler leak once. I have learned to live with small leaks. On my current build I will be paying a lot of attention to properly sealing the things mentioned above. The case halves probably worry me the least. |
Bentley has 25 ft lbs on the six T4 center bolts. The factory manual has 22 ft lbs. What matters in a bolt is whether it is tensioned enough. If it isn't tensioned more than the load placed on it then the bolt works, and can fatigue. Most likely the sealer is getting pushed out by fretting of the case on a bus because the case gets so much more of a workout. It is like heads off a bus get beat to death where the same heads on a 914-4, 411, or 1600 DP heads on a Beetle don't get the same workout.
| Wildthings wrote: |
At one point I had a link to the sealant list for what Jake used. Don't know if such would be available from the Type 4 Store or not.
It would be interesting to try teflon paste on the parting seam, but I will let someone else do the experimenting. |
Jake sent me a list a long time ago. I used that on the last build. Started getting leakage from the case part line at the exterior of the main seal at about 1800 miles. I pulled the seal and replaced it - it continued. I pulled it again and found that the weeping was at the part line on the outside of the seal. Oil migrated thru the part line past the seal. I tried putting sealer in there before putting the seal back in - just slowed it but did not stop it. This time I am going to try to put the seal in as the case halves are brought together so the sealer makes a better block for the oil. Got to make sure the end play is right before mating the case halves the final time, and hold the seals in with the VW seal tools as the case halves are mated.
You can see the narrow line on this seal where the oil was migrating on the outside of the seal. It was dry on the inside and outside except at the part lines, and for 100% this was one of the culprits for the oil leak on my bus. Another was the taco plate but I solved that one with extra Curil-T one the silicone o-ring. The replacement ones are thinner than the originals.
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blue72beetle
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Joined: April 23, 2008
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Location: Fort Wayne, IN
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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Beetles and Ghias don't have mustache bars, maybe that's another source of stress on the block.
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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| blue72beetle wrote: |
| Beetles and Ghias don't have mustache bars, maybe that's another source of stress on the block. |
Interesting observation. Could the rear motor mounts on the mustache bar allow the case halves to twist / fret on each other ever so slightly, something the lighter cars don't have to deal with. In that case a sealer that is flexible and spreads inside the case seam but doesn't detach to get into things or block the strainer would help keep the case sealed longer. I wonder if spreading a tiny bead of sealer inside the case along the seam the thickness of a paper match stick on both case halves would help any that squeezes in adhere, and protect from oil leaks for a longer period. It would have to be a sealer that did not thin out or detach, like Curil-T. I put that on the case bolts and washers last time 10 years ago, and had to use acetone to clean them off the last couple weeks. Regular solvent would not due it, and when it got on my hands soap and water would not remove it. The bolts and washers were still sticky after 10 years and 2000 miles. One would not want a ribbon on the inside held on only the thickness of the seam because it would detach. But a bead twice as wide as tall might adhere. Have to think on that one.
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telford dorr
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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It would seem to me (speculating here) that a shallow groove down the center of the case seams to hold a string of sealant would be an improvement. Torquing the normal case tight would seem to force out all but the thinnest film of sealant, which might not be enough to bond/seal properly, given the normal temperature changes and case movements.
Just a thought...
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airschooled
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Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:18 am Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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Andy, you bring up a good point, because T1 and T4 engines have very different rotational support. T1 engines make more noise in the cab, because the mustache bar gives the engine leverage on the chassis. With T4 engine mounts being more supple AND closer to the rotational axis, they typically move a little more in situ without actually transmitting the vibrations into the cabin.
Type 1 vehicles are typically used for daily motoring, while buses typically see longer highway miles.... I think this may impact the transaxle more than the engine, but the engines might like a little more varying speeds, instead of 15,000 miles a year at full throttle in 4th gear...
Robbie
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aeromech
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Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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Some guy from Sacramento recommended Permatex anaerobic sealant to me once. Works great. Reminds me of the Hylomar we used at the airline. I tried hard to find Hylomar but apparently it's made in Europe of all places.
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busdaddy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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| telford dorr wrote: |
It would seem to me (speculating here) that a shallow groove down the center of the case seams to hold a string of sealant would be an improvement. Torquing the normal case tight would seem to force out all but the thinnest film of sealant, which might not be enough to bond/seal properly, given the normal temperature changes and case movements.
Just a thought... |
It can be done for other engines, likely work on a VW as well.
http://www.lycon.com/uploads/4/4/8/8/44889763/crankcase__seal.pdf
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| telford dorr wrote: |
It would seem to me (speculating here) that a shallow groove down the center of the case seams to hold a string of sealant would be an improvement. Torquing the normal case tight would seem to force out all but the thinnest film of sealant, which might not be enough to bond/seal properly, given the normal temperature changes and case movements.
Just a thought... |
It can be done for other engines, likely work on a VW as well.
http://www.lycon.com/uploads/4/4/8/8/44889763/crankcase__seal.pdf |
Interesting. That Lycoming article says it all. At least I don't feel like such a failure if it takes that to stop their engines from leaking, and gives an added bonus of reducing the need for line boring caused by fretting.
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Last edited by SGKent on Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Alan Brase
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Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: "There she dribbles...." |
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| blue72beetle wrote: |
| Beetles and Ghias don't have mustache bars, maybe that's another source of stress on the block. |
True, but the A/C bay type 4 and Vanagon use rubber mounts very close moment to the crankshaft axis. The most extreme rear engine mount is the 1968-71 which mounts solidly on the rear of the engine, using cushions maybe 20inches from the crank axis.
But these are not the leaker class of this thread.
in addition to supporting weight, the rear mount would absorb some INERTIAL torque reaction as the motor accelerates and decelerates. Not a very high order of force, but even minor forces can have cumulative effect after 5 years and millions of cycles.
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