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Mr.Duncan
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 3542
Location: Houston, TX
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 Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:48 pm Post subject: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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Thought i'd make a post about this as it seems i'm the only type 3 guy running one of these.
I made a short video at the bottom of this post about the distributor.
I could make an install video later, but most people know how to install a distributor. 
I ended up running advance curve #1 for my 1971 Type 3 with an automatic transmission.
My timing at idle is set to 7* BTDC, max advance is 29* BTDC.
I know my stock distributor is timed to TDC at idle.
I am curious about having the 123 set to 7@ at idle where the fuel injectors are timed to. However, I have not seen any problems with 500 miles put on it so far.
This distributor DOES have a vacuum sensor built in too.
The model I used is here: https://123ignitionusa.com/porsche-with-d-jet-912-...es-spacer/
I have been very happy with this purchase, I've never had my engine idle so smooth. I had problems with 4 different sets of trigger points with various issues. Seeing that NOS trigger points are around $300-$400 now I thought i'd give this a shot.
Ed @ 123 USA has been very helpful with any questions I had.
Advance curve I chose: #1
Chart:
Link
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Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
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1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:41 am Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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| Mr.Duncan wrote: |
Thought i'd make a post about this as it seems i'm the only type 3 guy running one of these.
I made a short video at the bottom of this post about the distributor.
I could make an install video later, but most people know how to install a distributor.
I ended up running advance curve #1 for my 1971 Type 3 with an automatic transmission.
My timing at idle is set to 7* BTDC, max advance is 29* BTDC.
I know my stock distributor is timed to TDC at idle.
I am curious about having the 123 set to 7@ at idle where the fuel injectors are timed to. However, I have not seen any problems with 500 miles put on it so far.
This distributor DOES have a vacuum sensor built in too.
The model I used is here: https://123ignitionusa.com/porsche-with-d-jet-912-...es-spacer/
I have been very happy with this purchase, I've never had my engine idle so smooth. I had problems with 4 different sets of trigger points with various issues. Seeing that NOS trigger points are around $300-$400 now I thought i'd give this a shot.
Ed @ 123 USA has been very helpful with any questions I had.
Advance curve I chose: #1
Chart:
Link
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Thank you very much!
See...the minor problem with the chart they have....lists the distributor # by the "Bosch" number. That chart lists about 10 curves across 9 distributor part #'s for the 914....which could be a range from 1.7L to 1.8L to 2.0L
They only list one for 411/412.
The problem is that ALL of the distributors and curves used in injected 411/412...are identical to those used in the injected 1.7L, 1.8L and some of the 2.0L 914.
The Bosch #...identifies only the distributor...and not the curve. The injected 411, 412 and 914...1.7L alone...used about 6 different letter code distributors based around aVW distributor #'s of 021 905 205 and 022 905 205....in letter codes ranging from 021 A, B,C, K and L and 022 A, E, H and P.
So....looking at the curves instead of "what it replaces"...list....I woulf probably choose the same curve you did.....but...with the difference that if the curve #1 in YOUR distributor is set up for type 3 start point in timing.....the closest thing to it in 914 timing (which is the same as a 411/412)....would be curve #2.
Ray |
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heimlich 
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6614
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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That's a very nice sounding engine.
I've always like the idea of those 123 Ignitions where you can set the advance curve. The programmable ones look fantastic.
The distributor cap VK106 maps over to Bosch 03010.
I'm curious to know what's wrong with the Bosch distributor. Were the points wearing unevenly, firing unevenly, etc? The used ones are tricky to set. Some of the folks on here created a tool by cutting off the top of a used distributor to make the ignition points more easily adjustable.
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Mr.Duncan
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Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 3542
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:32 am Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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| heimlich wrote: |
That's a very nice sounding engine.
I've always like the idea of those 123 Ignitions where you can set the advance curve. The programmable ones look fantastic.
The distributor cap VK106 maps over to Bosch 03010.
I'm curious to know what's wrong with the Bosch distributor. Were the points wearing unevenly, firing unevenly, etc? The used ones are tricky to set. Some of the folks on here created a tool by cutting off the top of a used distributor to make the ignition points more easily adjustable. |
It was something due to the FI trigger points, as to what I was unsure. All 4 sets gave me slightly different running issues. Most of them was an idle that went up and down in 3-4 second waves. Felt like some sort of feedback loop with the fuel system.
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Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
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1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:29 am Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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| Mr.Duncan wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
That's a very nice sounding engine.
I've always like the idea of those 123 Ignitions where you can set the advance curve. The programmable ones look fantastic.
The distributor cap VK106 maps over to Bosch 03010.
I'm curious to know what's wrong with the Bosch distributor. Were the points wearing unevenly, firing unevenly, etc? The used ones are tricky to set. Some of the folks on here created a tool by cutting off the top of a used distributor to make the ignition points more easily adjustable. |
It was something due to the FI trigger points, as to what I was unsure. All 4 sets gave me slightly different running issues. Most of them was an idle that went up and down in 3-4 second waves. Felt like some sort of feedback loop with the fuel system. |
There it is......exactly what I have been trying to get across to people for AGES.....with D-jet.
Yes....technically it IS a feedback loop. A nearly as accurate descriptive word.....is a "CASCADE" effect. It can also be called a "pyramid" effect. Others still....have described the problem as a "sinusoidal" effect.....which is NOT descriptive enough. That just says what you "see".....rising and falling of idle. It says nothing of what is causing or what else it affects.
So what is a pyramid or cascade effect?.....Think of those cheesey weddings in the movies.....with a pyramid of champagne glasses 13 X 13 on the bottom and one last glass in the center at the apex. All are full to the brim.
That top center glass represents.....the first "input".....something changes. The glass overflows by even a very tiny bit....and its effect.....is not just an overflow that affects one glass.....it affects the four underneath it just a tiny bit. Those eftect the 8 below and so on.
This is what happens with the vacuum signature of D-jet. In steady state running....idle for instance......the MPS..... is so sensitive that any minute change in timing, rpm, advance.....causes a very minute change in vacuum signature. That causes a minute change in fuel mixture.
That tiny change that caused that vacuum signature change....may have changed back to "situation normal".....in a millisecond. But the "droplet".....had already been put into the glass at the apex....so to speak. 
The downstream changes.....are already in motion. When the fuel mixture changes that tiny amount....rpm changes....and vacuum signature changes again......and fuel mixture changes again....and vacuum signature changes again....and on....and on....and on. This is the cascade.
Its not REALLY a problem with the stock distributor....when its new and tight and all the parts function perfectly. The problem is that the MPS in the EFI system....is more sensitive in its range of resolution.......than the ECU is.
The MPS has a problem with the stock distributor.
The distributor is doing FAR too many things....mechanically....and simultaneously. It uses too many mechanical parts.....each with its own RANGE of tolerance.....to accomppish all of these things.....or should I say....that all of these parts are operating to accomplish just three things:
Ignition timing
Ignition advance
Injection timing
1. The shaft is turning. When new....the Bosch distributor has pretty good accuracy. When its high miles.....if you measure carefully.....you get excessive vertical oscillation of the shaft from worn shims.....which causes variation/change of the rotor tip to the cap contact....which causes very minor changes to spark. Thats a cascade input.
2. You also have shims between the body and trigger points cam. Those wear and allow vertical motion of the trigger points cam with is basically clamped into place on a rivet head as a locating stud. This is another possible cascade input.
3. You have the upper points cam assembly.....which is held by the small C clip. With age and wear....the points cam wears.....and you get some side to side oscillation from wear in the whole points cam assembly where it pivots on the main shaft. Two more cascade inputs.
4. The points plate....with age and wear....and somewhat even when new.....has a lot of slop in it. As the distributor wears, that finger wears and you get even more slop between plate and finger. As the vacuum advance arm pulls plate.....it lifts on the far edge where its hooked under that little metal finger. As it lifts....that lifting motion "steals" horizontal sliding motion. You lose a small amount of advance. That's another cascade input.
To stay with just this part.....as the distributor wears.....the ball and spring opposite the metal finger....wears a divot in the plate. It can alternately make the plate too hard to mkve from vacuum advance chamber pressure...so you can lose some advance....and/or....it makes the action sticky and jumpy...because instead of smooth vacuum advance....advance unit pull force must,build up until the ball "snaps" out of the divot worn in the plate....causing excessive and too rapid advance.
This is two more cascade inputs.
5. Then we get into the mechanical advance.....rusty plates, rusty fly weight pivot points, worn fly weight pivot points, worn cam points that move the upper points can assembly, weak springs....and you have two different spring tensions....all of these create sticky or variable mechanical advance.....and all are cascade inputs.
6. Now the trigger points.....two different channels...two different points sets. The rubbing blocks wear at different rates and angles because of how the rubbing block is angled to the cam.
You can have variations in resistance to ground in the plate mounting for each point set.....variations in reaistance within the electrode on each point....variation in sprijg tension causing innacuracy in lift and closing......and the biggest two issues of all....lousey connections at the three pin plug and a wide differdnce in resistance between one point set and the other.
See.....the ECU....translates resistance....into "time". High resistance is a differdnce in milliseconds. This is a direct translation into shorter or longer injection window for each injector pair.
All of these issues.....are cascade inputs.
7. Then we get into timing. With age and other engine changes like wear, compressiin loss, altitude changes etc.....owners change the ignition timing sligjtly to compensate. When you change the ignition timing.....you change the injection timing whether you want to or not.....because the injection timing is slaved to the distributor body.
All of these "mechanical" things....must operate within a narrow band of normal tolerance.....or else their stacked up tolerances can multiply each others effect. So they can be minor cascade inputs by themselves....or as these parts wear.....their input effect gets bad enough that the effect starts linking with the other inputs.
All of these mechanical parts....and we have not even gotten into how they affect fuel pressure stability by causing the MPS to oscillate pulsewidth....and we have not even gotten into input variations from spark plugs, wires, cap, rotor coil and points........but all of these mechanical parts are there to control just three things
Spark timing
Spark advance
Injection timing
There are far too many variable items ....whose variations increase with age and wear.....to operate with a system whose main load sensor.....is sensitive enough to "see" and react to the wear.
So there is nothing wrong with the stock distributor.....when its NEW.....or fully rebuilt to make sure it is working like new. And thats a serious rebuild....not just a few shims and bushings.
Of course....now knowing this WILL eventually be a problem.....if you could get brand new distributors and keep them super clean and lubed....and tear them down at X miles and replace bearings and bushings before things wear out.....you could probably avoid a lot of this.
Ray |
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Mr.Duncan
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Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 3542
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:40 am Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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Yes Ray I absolutely agree with everything listed above. You are spot on.
In my case, It was not worth the money and time to source and rebuild my OE distributor and HOPE that it would maybe work well.
Estimates:
($100 for rebuild parts)
($400 for NOS FI trigger points)
($40-$80 in core distributors for spare parts)
($75 1 year only vacuum can)
($??? - Time invested into rebuilding the OE distributor)
At the cost of around $400 I think the 123 is a great solution.
Since the distributor shaft has no points rubbing blocks pushing on it, I'd imagine side-to-side wear on the bearings is little to none with the 123 distributor.
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Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
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1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Java Green Std Beetle (sold)
1971 Red Squareback (sold)
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:55 am Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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| Mr.Duncan wrote: |
Yes Ray I absolutely agree with everything listed above. You are spot on.
In my case, It was not worth the money and time to source and rebuild my OE distributor and HOPE that it would maybe work well.
Estimates:
($100 for rebuild parts)
($400 for NOS FI trigger points)
($40-$80 in core distributors for spare parts)
($75 1 year only vacuum can)
($??? - Time invested into rebuilding the OE distributor)
At the cost of around $400 I think the 123 is a great solution.
Since the distributor shaft has no points rubbing blocks pushing on it, I'd imagine side-to-side wear on the bearings is little to none with the 123 distributor. |
Yes...I have been coming to the same conclusions. I have been watching the "123" from afar. I have been watching a few people with as much D-jet tuning experience as I have...but with much more "engine" experience.
There were some initial issues a year or two ago that I heard about...with differences between blue tooth and no blue tooth....but they have been working out.
I can say this for 100% sure over many, many miles...years...and engines.....I have found that......the three main keys...to tuning D-jet significantly more precisely than stock tuning level...which was nice and smooth from the factory when all was new in the first place.....are:
1. Connectivity. Whether you use upgraded connectors or factory stock (but they must be new or perfect)....perfect, non-variable connections get rid of LOTS of minor rpm fluctuation. This is also the hallmark of modern injection systems.
Alongside and part of...connectivity....is having very narrow levels of voltage variation. This is easier to maintain in type 4 cars with the 55 amp alternator than it is in the type 3.....but ground quality is key to all of this if nothing else.
2. Fuel pressure stability and accuracy. The voltage stability is part of this. The system uses a fixed pressure. It knows what it is supposed to be and works within that framework. The system ASSUMES its stable.
3. The distributor AND ignition: As Tram always says....check teh ignition first. Personally I say check fuel pressure and volume first....but he is 100% right as well.....because even if fuel pressure is perfect....I am not even going to attempt to start the car again until I have been through the ignition. Both have to be as spot on as possible.
Because of all of the items we mentioned above.....we are running two totally different systems off of the same shaft....ignition spark and injection timing.
Taking care of these three items......and this is already assuming that all else is correct mechanically in the engine....vacuum leaks, cooling, compression etc.......these three items when done properly take care of about 98% of all of the strange tuning, oscillations, starting issues etc.
For so long I drove my type 3's and 4's thinking they were just old and ran a little odd...but generally got me there well once on the highway. Over a period of years of tweaking these items and learning how things really worked......I got my engine tuned out to the point...and I mean this literally....where in ANY weather from 5 below to 110* F.....I could come out in the morning.....reach in through the door and put the shifter in neutral (four speeds).....and turn the key and let the fuel pump buzz. Then turn the key.....and literally in less than one full revolution of the engine....it fired up and idled smoothly.
Yes.....it took lots of tweaking, cleaning and refurbing the points plate, shaft bushings, vacuum advance unit had to have the hole in the arm bushed, slack removed from the main distributor shaft...trigger points that were spot on.....careful centering of the distributor cap and scrupulously clean cap, rotor.....changed from points to pertronix (big improvement)....changed to a better than the stock black coil (which was pretty good in the first place)...but a 42kv pertronix coil......lots of work making sure fuel pressure was 0.5 to 1.0 psi stable.....a new wiring harness for teh injection system (major improvement), a ballasting resistor for the TS-2, a good functioning and adjusted AAR (I had to ope the electric one and clean, rewire and adjust).......and on top of all of this....I could more tightly tune the MPS now.
All of this....and the main core change that REALLY brought it all together...was finally getting a distributor that was dead on ....better than factory tight and correct ....better than factory. That point was clear.
The problem is that with daily driving...to keep it that way....meant maintenance every few months, special oils and greases on the fly weights and pivots etc.
So yes.....finding something that gets rid of at least half of the mechanical linkages inside of the stock distributor......has always been on my mind.
I think the 123 could be ideal.....as long as I can tweak the injection start point. And...that may be as simple as just like any other distributor. If I can turn the body to get the injection start point to normal.....and if the ignition timing is close to a normal factory set point to that.....it could be ideal.
If not...buying a "tune" version of that....should allow me to adjust the ignition point. Ray |
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Tram
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:39 am Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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Even when fairly new, in the mid/ late 1970s, replacing trigger points, breaker plates, and vacuum cans in these cars was commonplace. Besides that, for some reason, whenever triggers were replaced we were instructed to replace ECUs as well. This really gave customers- and techs!- the mistaken impression that this system was pretty much an "Edsel", I think. Surprisingly, the component I recall replacing the least- almost never- was the harness. That came decades later!
Ray, one thing you left out- and it was a biggie- is the effect oil fouling has on the triggers. Any time any trigger failure happened, VW had us replace them. Mercedes, on the other hand, had us pull and clean them at 15K mile intervals, along with regreasing the riders. That's probably why the MB version was so "bulletproof" as opposed to VW, even though it was used on V-8 engines (and 6 cyl engines in the ROW while USA got the beyond shitty Solex version of the Quadrajunk). The M-B distributors, like everything else M-B, was overbuilt to the point of absurdity which also likely helps a lot. ("Das Beste- oder Nichts!") The oil fouling plus the expansion/ contraction and wear in the distributor and components made this system far more troublesome than it needed to be. When running correctly (however fleetingly), D- Jet outperformed K- jet and L- jet in my opinion. It was just that K and L didn't have the distributor based issues.
The 123 brings us into the modern age, eliminating all this fiddle- fucking and cause of death.
I usually go through Mike Fisher's 1969 FI Automatic car once a year unless something breaks- and every time I wind up having to spend time on the distributor. Burned points, worn rider, shims, dirty/ wobbling breaker plates, etc. Getting this car to idle consistently has always been a pain. I'll set it up and get it idling at 950, drive it, and it's fine, only to get an email from him that "you set the idle too low again!" a couple days later.
This car has always had an issue with low/ no idle for about the first 45 seconds on a cold start too, despite a newer and verified AAR and both new NOS temp sensors. After the 45 secs it's fine and Mike seems OK with it but it bugs me because you should crank while slowly depressing the throttle till it catches, then it should idle about 1200-1500 until the AAR starts closing.
Last time it was here, I replaced the ECU because last year it lost the ground function for the fuel pump so I quickly hard- grounded it to get him back on the road. When I pulled the ECU out, I discovered it was a C! Got the correct B in it and hoped that would eliminate the problems, but while it runs SCADS betterIMO, the damn idle and cold start issue remains. This is with an Adney rebuilt pump and NOS harness that's about 8 years old, too.
What's left?  You guessed it!
Mike and I usually trade for parts and storage so I am thinking about just forcing the issue on one of these 123s next trip to save myself a bunch of vexatious work in the future. 
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| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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KTPhil
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:02 am Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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| I have been gathering parts to rebuild my distributor, after its failure made an"adventure" out of the last Invasion. But I'm intrigued by this... it may just be my rebuilt unit will be the carry-on spare, and this electronic unit might find a home in my '71 Type 3. I'd like the no-wear, set-and-forget nature... IF it is reliable. Keep the info coming! |
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Tram
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:07 am Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| I have been gathering parts to rebuild my distributor, after its failure made an"adventure" out of the last Invasion. But I'm intrigued by this... it may just be my rebuilt unit will be the carry-on spare, and this electronic unit might find a home in my '71 Type 3. I'd like the no-wear, set-and-forget nature... IF it is reliable. Keep the info coming! |
The new fun angle with original parts is that the "new" no- name trigger points marketed for 914s (but fit our cars, too) sometimes need a little grinding with a Dremel to fit, but more annoying, I have seen several of these now in which one side of the triggers will stick open. Remove them, lube it, work it till it doesn't stick, and they'll be fine till it randomly decides to happen again.
Just FYI.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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| Tram wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
| I have been gathering parts to rebuild my distributor, after its failure made an"adventure" out of the last Invasion. But I'm intrigued by this... it may just be my rebuilt unit will be the carry-on spare, and this electronic unit might find a home in my '71 Type 3. I'd like the no-wear, set-and-forget nature... IF it is reliable. Keep the info coming! |
The new fun angle with original parts is that the "new" no- name trigger points marketed for 914s (but fit our cars, too) sometimes need a little grinding with a Dremel to fit, but more annoying, I have seen several of these now in which one side of the triggers will stick open. Remove them, lube it, work it till it doesn't stick, and they'll be fine till it randomly decides to happen again.
Just FYI. |
Yes.....I did leave out the trigger point oil fouling. That is HUGE.
Why is it huge?.....because most simple oils and greases.....have some "dielectric" capacity. Dielectric means....insulator.....meaning they resist current flow.
And.....the Bosch distributor grease and others.....are very high in SILICONE.....and SILICONE.....is the One of the GREATEST ....most effective dielectric insulators known to man!. When you foul the triggers with distributor grease......it can be a total non contact.
Yes.....the harness issue was not a real issue back in the day. The wires and connectors were young. Bosch and mainly AMP.....only started wear testing the connector system when they started finding that with lots of plugging and unplugging....caused faults. So you would really only have the connector issue on cars that had had lots of in and out work.....or were very old.
I can see....replacing the ECU's on some cars. There was tolerance in the resistance of the components in the ECU just like all other parts. When something as core as the triggers needed to be replaced....sometimes the stacked up resistance tolerance can be too much for the range of output.
As for the new builds of triggers for 914 having problems.....YES. one of the big issues is that build quality is poor. The pivot posts are not 100% square to the plate on some....and the plates are not flat on others. Because of this....the bottom side of the pivot arm can hang up and not close or open.
The other issue.....hard to put a finger on.
From all I have ever seen....there is only one D-jet trigger point part # for VW and Porsche. Yes there are totally different plate designs fof Renault, BMW, Mercedes etc......but for the Bosch/VW distributor there is only one plate design that I know of.
BUT......where the points plate fits in the distributor and how the distributor fits in the engine.....just look at type 4 versus type 3.....there are differences in how its clocked to the engine and cam.......so because of camshaft duration and opening points between type 1 based engines and type 4.... there are also some slight differences in exact overlay of the 180° cycle of the two injection circuits to the valve open event. Most of this is taken care off by distributor position in the engine and drive dog position...and even trigger points cam clocking inside.
But.....the differences in the two engine types is enough that injection timing is not quite ideal at idle and low rpm......so how well the trigger point set FITS.....and how accurate it is mounted to the distributor body.....is critical.
And then......going even further....looking inside....the mounting positions, arm length pivot point positions.....which set up where the trigger points are mounted in relation to the plate...and therefore to the cam.....is also critical.
So in looking at my big pile of trigger points.....when I take my one "work mule" of a distributor body....which has no shaft, plates or anything inside.....I can put trigger points plates in one at a time....and look down on point and rubbing block position one at a time..........and see a wide range of SUBTLE variation of points angles and rubbing block position....and even fit of the plate.
All I can conclude is that there has been too much variation in the manufacturing of this part over the years. I can only assume its worse now. Ray |
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KTPhil
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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| I think Bosch added two small oil deflector plates to the later design to avoid point fouling. |
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Clatter
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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It has been so many years since i did the old "Car runs like shit - do ignition tune up" routine i can't even remember when.
Why on earth would you sign yourself up for such pain?
You like having troubles, so you can feel smart by fixing them?
Maybe that's why we like this hobby??
Either way,
It's rapidly approaching hopelessness with this junk.
People are now hoarding Bosch rotors and caps and points and..
Support the vendors who (Thankfully) give you a chance to keep your old car on the road.
It won't be too long before 123 abandons making this D-Jet FI distributor,
Because they won't want to be seen anywhere near the broken car with their product installed (even if it wasn't the cause of the failure).
Get it while you can..
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22727
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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| Clatter wrote: |
It has been so many years since i did the old "Car runs like shit - do ignition tune up" routine i can't even remember when.
Why on earth would you sign yourself up for such pain?
You like having troubles, so you can feel smart by fixing them?
Maybe that's why we like this hobby??
Either way,
It's rapidly approaching hopelessness with this junk.
People are now hoarding Bosch rotors and caps and points and..
Support the vendors who (Thankfully) give you a chance to keep your old car on the road.
It won't be too long before 123 abandons making this D-Jet FI distributor,
Because they won't want to be seen anywhere near the broken car with their product installed (even if it wasn't the cause of the failure).
Get it while you can.. |
Thanks for the positive thoughts, there, Sunshine! 
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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| Clatter wrote: |
It has been so many years since i did the old "Car runs like shit - do ignition tune up" routine i can't even remember when.
Why on earth would you sign yourself up for such pain?
You like having troubles, so you can feel smart by fixing them?
Maybe that's why we like this hobby??
Either way,
It's rapidly approaching hopelessness with this junk.
People are now hoarding Bosch rotors and caps and points and..
Support the vendors who (Thankfully) give you a chance to keep your old car on the road.
It won't be too long before 123 abandons making this D-Jet FI distributor,
Because they won't want to be seen anywhere near the broken car with their product installed (even if it wasn't the cause of the failure).
Get it while you can.. |
And...it been decades since i have "needed"...to randomly go through ignition on D-jet because I can't figure out what it is. That is sound advice....for those who cannot figure it out or are new to the system.
Typically if you know what you are doing and you have kept it maintained...you "know" what it is and where to look.
Sadly....watching so many struggle with D-jet here....if we had a star trek transporter and I could visit these people I can usually fix what it is adjustment wise or test for and show you exactly what to replace in under a few hours....for well over 90% of them.
Most struggle...because they refuse to do the testing properly. They skip what they think "looks" good or is new.
I do agree with the point...get parts when you see them. There is nothing I need to buy for D-jet for the pretty much the rest of my life. I buy parts when I see them and the rice is fair...knowing they may not be there in the future.
I actually dont even need the 123 distributor. I worked out all of my trigger points issues and distributor issues...about two decades ago.
But....I am also realistic. The 123....as it seems to me...incorporates most of what I went to long ago in my stock distributors. I rebuilt them to better specs than stock. Tighter...straighter...no slop.....and replaced the points with a pertronix....AND worked out the many issues those have. Same with the triggers.
The 123....seems to be better than stock build quality, materials, has a digital trigger for both points and injection....and is PROGRAMMABLE in the "tune" versions.
So getting one of these.... yes...while they make them ...is paramount now. They could stop them anytime. However...Idoubt they will because teh 914 and BMW interest alone.
That being said....if they stop them before Christmas and I'm SOL......no big deal. I'm in the process of having a couple of pairs of Torlon distributor bearings made (because I have some torlon)....which will not wear out before the sun goes nova and are tighter tolerances than stock....and I have five boxes of complete brand new 1983 GTI hall effect kits that with the mods I did to a distributor last year...will drop right in. Couple that to a black box from CB...and my home made trigger plates....and the 60KV e-coil..and I will have pretty much the most modern "stock" type distributor you can get next to a 123.
But yes.....the 123 looks really nice and right along my frame of mind. Ray |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22727
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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Most struggle...because they refuse to do the testing properly. They skip what they think "looks" good or is new.
Even beyond that, too many people think that diagnosis is a snap "Eureka!" moment. It's not- it's a process of elimination, done in the order that the manufacturer's engineers laid out.
Even when I already know damn well what the issue is with someone's car, I still go through the process, because you never know what else you may turn up that is failing or about to fail.
When the complaint is "my car won't start" and you go right to that vacuum line that you know is off and fix it without checking out the ignition system first, but the point rider is severely worn and the points are about to stay shut causing the car not to start in three days, you can go from hero to idiot really quickly.
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Mr.Duncan
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 3542
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:32 am Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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I'd like to point out this post is mainly here for the following:
If you have a WORN stock distributor, and do not have the time, skills, or money to repair it to like new stock configuration, the 123ingition is a good replacement for the D-jet system. (And its maintenance free)
This post is not for:
"Stock VW's distributors suck"
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:35 am Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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| Tram wrote: |
Most struggle...because they refuse to do the testing properly. They skip what they think "looks" good or is new.
Even beyond that, too many people think that diagnosis is a snap "Eureka!" moment. It's not- it's a process of elimination, done in the order that the manufacturer's engineers laid out.
Even when I already know damn well what the issue is with someone's car, I still go through the process, because you never know what else you may turn up that is failing or about to fail.
When the complaint is "my car won't start" and you go right to that vacuum line that you know is off and fix it without checking out the ignition system first, but the point rider is severely worn and the points are about to stay shut causing the car not to start in three days, you can go from hero to idiot really quickly. |
Yes.....to me that is the difference when I'm working on MY CARs....versus someone else's.
With all of the potential parts and pieces in the ignition system in general and the distributor in specific......I listed earlier that have to work.....yes.....I systematically check .....if for no other reason than to "prove" what the problem is NOT.
I got away from the need to do a lot of that on my own car....because I improved a few parts as mentioned earlier.....and the insane amount of miles.....never less than about,1200 per week......I pulled assemblies for check and adjust monthly.....or even less.
Proactive maintenance and KNOWING the condition of everything.......instead of waiting for something to stop the car or make it run poorly so I could then have to diagnose on the fly or the side of the road.
Ray |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7544
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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| Mr.Duncan wrote: |
I'd like to point out this post is mainly here for the following:
If you have a WORN stock distributor, and do not have the time, skills, or money to repair it to like new stock configuration, the 123ingition is a good replacement for the D-jet system. (And its maintenance free)
This post is not for:
"Stock VW's distributors suck" |
Sorry if i took the bait on that 'Stock VW distributors suck' thing.
I'm all roses and sunshine some days..
Only a few people on earth are into giving the stock stuff a ton of skilled love like our Tram and Mr. Greenwood here.
And,
if I'm not mistaken, Tram will install a 123 if given the chance.
The 123 is a godsend to anyone who hasn't dedicated their "life" to tinkering with VW distributors and hoarding parts.
I'd consider it a good first tune-up part to install..
How lucky we are to suddenly have a replacement for those Achilles heel trigger points! 
Thanks for the detailed write up.
Time to go and find a rainbow to go and ride my unicorn over...
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: 123ignition DJET distributor for Type 3's with DJET systems |
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| Clatter wrote: |
| Mr.Duncan wrote: |
I'd like to point out this post is mainly here for the following:
If you have a WORN stock distributor, and do not have the time, skills, or money to repair it to like new stock configuration, the 123ingition is a good replacement for the D-jet system. (And its maintenance free)
This post is not for:
"Stock VW's distributors suck" |
Sorry if i took the bait on that 'Stock VW distributors suck' thing.
I'm all roses and sunshine some days..
Only a few people on earth are into giving the stock stuff a ton of skilled love like our Tram and Mr. Greenwood here.
And,
if I'm not mistaken, Tram will install a 123 if given the chance.
The 123 is a godsend to anyone who hasn't dedicated their "life" to tinkering with VW distributors and hoarding parts.
I'd consider it a good first tune-up part to install..
How lucky we are to suddenly have a replacement for those Achilles heel trigger points!
Thanks for the detailed write up.
Time to go and find a rainbow to go and ride my unicorn over... |
....yes!
As I have noted.....I have been looking on....lurking we call it.....on a lot of 123 threads. Hoping this thing IS....as good as everyone says. I have been looking on in the CB blackbox threads as well.
For curves and tunability alone...the CB Black box would be a revolution for D-jet injected type 4. But....I have some reservations still about the black box
Why would the tune-ability of black box be a revolution?.....because at this moment....I can actually tune the fuel mixture on D-jet....with FAR more precision and to a higher resolution than I can the ignition curves.......and that factor .....even aside from wear and 45 year old distributors and lack of parts and trigger point issues..............the lack of control-ability of the advance curves......really leaves a lot of tuning on the table with D-jet.
Why after all of these years is it important to have "tune-ability" with D-jet?....because 45-50 years on....not everything is new or perfect. Unless you do a really pristine, precise build....you are either "less than" stock condition....or in just as many cases....you are now "greater than" stock condition....because in doing a really precise build these days....you will in all likelihood be using a non stock cam and a few other non-stock parts....and may even be slightly larger, have different exhaust etc.
In both cases....less than stock or greater than stock....you need "tunability" in both fuel and ignition.
To finish the thought.....a CB Black Box would give great ignition tunability.....BUT.....would still leave me with the damn trigger points issue.
The person that first pointed this out to me in another thread...was Alstrup. He noted that the blue tooth version of 1,2,3 had a D-jet trigger and had tunable curves.
Ray |
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