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POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)?
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epowell
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:52 am    Post subject: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

In the image below - this is the kind of rust I need to deal with in my "B.C. van" Antonio. Part of the problem is that there is a lot of deep surface rust and I don't have unlimited time to deal with this... normally what I would do would be to grind off all the rust, hit with rust converter, then EPOXY PRIMER.

But since I have a bit of a time limit in Vancouver, I am considering using POR15 instead. I heard that some folks have had good results without grinding off any rust at all - rather just cleaning and de-greasing the rusted areas before applying POR15.

I think what I would do would be a kind of middle-way... grind quickly as much as possible off without trying to be perfectionistic - then de-grease - then POR15.

I would like to hear some advice of this before deciding. It's not like I do not have the time to do it "properly" (grind off all rust, then epoxy primer), but I have only 4 weeks in Vancouver and always need/want to do other things also.


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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

I would not use the POR15. Wire brush the worst, then spray rust converter from a plastic spray bottle for faster coverage versus brushing it on.
Then spray Zinc Primer, also known as cold galvanizing paint on , once the converter dries. It’s reversible when you work on this later on ,and will possibly cling better to the body.
Not expensive either, as you probably only need a can or two of both products.

As an example

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Oleum-Professiona.../100142963
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

jlrftype7 wrote:
I would not use the POR15. Wire brush the worst, then


What kind of problems have you had with it? I've used it on 2 cars and it works great. My only issue is that it can be messy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:39 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

Get some MasterSeries silver primer. Ive used everything and MasterSeries is by far the best.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

tjet wrote:
jlrftype7 wrote:
I would not use the POR15. Wire brush the worst, then


What kind of problems have you had with it? I've used it on 2 cars and it works great. My only issue is that it can be messy

Not problems per se, but the OP has posted previously about working on his VWs for a bit on one section, then coming back to that section a year or two later to revisit something as he bounces from his locations.
If he goes with POR15, can he remove it easily, if needed, to do more body work later on? That’s my concern.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:25 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

I would wire brush, apply rust converter and spray waxoyl when the converter dries.
Although I don't know if waxoyl is available in Canada or US
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tetrosyl-Carplan-Waxoyl-Rustproof-Protector/dp/B01FSO42GK
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

POR-15 works well on a rough rusty surface as a top coat to encapsulate the area under it. It has drawbacks though. It is brittle and can chip off and then water gets under it and creeps along the rusty substrate and continues to rust even though the POR-15 on it looks good.

Wire brush/wheel and Ospho then a primer are the way I'd go. It will not really take any longer.
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epowell
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:34 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

Thanks for these replies...

Seems the main problem with POR15 is that it is more or less a "one way ticket". You don't want to be in a position later on to want to remove it.

This predicament opens up a few questions:
1) why would one want to remove it later?
2) what are the chances of the rust coming back after POR15. Seems the answer to this would depend upon how bad the original rust was and how much of it was removed before POR15 was applied.

I would NEVER just apply POR15 without at least getting rid of the majority of the rust first - but my current curiosity about the POR15 option lies in the time saving factor between grinding off ALL the rust vs. about 70% of it. That last 30% can be the most time consuming (and toxic dust - the last thing I want when travelling internationally is to do something that might give me symptoms of respiratory issues).

PS. Missed the last 2 replies. Yeah I hear ya Dave, The last thing I want is having it look great yet be disintegrating from the inside out > I guess if I intended to sell the van soon that would be another story, but I intend to keep Antonio for life. Same with GEorge <3
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:47 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

As Dobryan said, you'd have to remove it if it chips and then water seeps underneath.

My suggested method: Wire wheel (or brush, but it'll take much longer) all the loose surface rust, then paint everything in 2 coats of 3M Mar-Hyde.

Rust
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Mar-Hyde
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


After a day of curing, you can coat it with whatever paint you want (even POR15) for additional protection. The benefit of using Mar-Hyde or Ospho is that it catalyzes on the rust forming the protection layer. POR15 is just a paint that seals out the moisture, which is good, but not the best way.
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epowell
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:59 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

So what's up with this "OSPHO" stuff? Is this kind of a deluxe rust converter?

So can I assume that the best method is:
1) grind off all the rust including pits
2) treat with OSPHO
3) apply epoxy primer
?
https://www.caswellcanada.ca/OSPH1G.html
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4Gears4Tires
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

No, it's just a rust converter. There are many out there.

https://www.carbibles.com/best-rust-converter/
https://chemicalwiki.com/best-rust-converter/

I use Mar-Hyde because several trusted friends independently suggested it. It's also used at D.C. Metro and if its good enough to try to keep up with train maintenance, it'll be good enough for my van. It is, however, quite a bit more expensive than Ospho with Mar-Hyde being $45/quart and Ospho being $30/gallon.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

4Gears4Tires wrote:
No, it's just a rust converter. There are many out there.

https://www.carbibles.com/best-rust-converter/
https://chemicalwiki.com/best-rust-converter/

I use Mar-Hyde because several trusted friends independently suggested it. It's also used at D.C. Metro and if its good enough to try to keep up with train maintenance, it'll be good enough for my van. It is, however, quite a bit more expensive than Ospho with Mar-Hyde being $45/quart and Ospho being $30/gallon.


Usually we get what we pay for...
I bought some kind of rust treatment liquid at CanTire last Autumn because it was the only thing I could find anywhere... but this year I will hunt down some really good stuff. Mar-Hyde sounds really good. I don't mind spending money for such things, if it means I only have to grind off the rust ONCE!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

Anything brittle is eventually going to fail. That's always been the problem with POR15.

If the rust isn't so deep that it's threatening structural integrity, I'd vote for Waxoyl. It keeps the water and salt out and flexes with movement and heat. Maybe a light wire brushing beforehand.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

Californio wrote:
Anything brittle is eventually going to fail. That's always been the problem with POR15.

If the rust isn't so deep that it's threatening structural integrity, I'd vote for Waxoyl. It keeps the water and salt out and flexes with movement and heat. Maybe a light wire brushing beforehand.


The waxoyl is a good treatment after wire wheel, converter, primer. I use it everywhere like that. I'd not recommend it directly on the rust. Especially if you intend to eventually go back in there and do a more thorough job. The wax will be hard to remove and will mess up any future primer/paint.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

dobryan wrote:
Californio wrote:
Anything brittle is eventually going to fail. That's always been the problem with POR15.

If the rust isn't so deep that it's threatening structural integrity, I'd vote for Waxoyl. It keeps the water and salt out and flexes with movement and heat. Maybe a light wire brushing beforehand.


The waxoyl is a good treatment after wire wheel, converter, primer. I use it everywhere like that. I'd not recommend it directly on the rust. Especially if you intend to eventually go back in there and do a more thorough job. The wax will be hard to remove and will mess up any future primer/paint.


Yeah, we had previously discussed this at length... WAXOYL also seems like a "one way ticket" since it is also very tough to remove.

The first year I left the van to sit (for a year) I mixed up some paint-thinner & light cooking oil and sprayed it all over the place under the van. Then you guys informed me never to spray oil on any surface I eventually intend to paint. However this treatment seemed to hold off the rust for a year and seemed to more or less weathered off after a year.

The second year I left the van to sit I simply sprayed some cheap rust converter all over the place under the van (careful to avoid rubber parts). I'm curious to see what condition it will all be in when I return this September.

I think as much as possible I will in fact try to grind off as much rust as possible, and then apply epoxy primer. However there are areas like the front control arms and the trailing arms which are very very rusty inside... I guess for those areas I will continue to spray heavily with rust converter until the time in the perhaps distant future when I'll have time to completely remove those and soak them in vinegar etc and deal with them properly.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

epowell wrote:

I think as much as possible I will in fact try to grind off as much rust as possible, and then apply epoxy primer.


Grind off the rust, use converter, then primer.

It is real important to use converter if you want to stop the rust, primer alone will not do that. Cheap converter is better than no converter imo.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

So for sure I'll properly do the rust on the frames and the floor underbody...
...but I'm still not completely sure what I'll do with areas like on this foto.
Rear backing plates and trailing arms.
These parts ultimately are replaceable so it might be an option not to worry too much about them, then eventually replace...

...I think for now if I don't have time to grind off the rust (probably won't), I'll just keep spraying them each year with rust converter before storing the van. I suppose I could hit it all with a coat of cheap primer?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

RalphWiggam wrote:
Get some MasterSeries silver primer. Ive used everything and MasterSeries is by far the best.


X2

POR 15 is absolute fking trash. it use to be good, and I swore by it until it started to fail.

MS is by far a better product. everyone will have an opinion on this. next time I have one of my DD's on the lift I will show you what 10 year old MS looks like...it looks like the day I applied it.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

epowell wrote:
... Part of the problem is that there is a lot of deep surface rust and I don't have unlimited time to deal with this...

.... I have only 4 weeks in Vancouver and always need/want to do other things also.


I've never used one but would renting a portable sand blaster be of use here? Save some time, get more rust off?

Some years ago, I applied Plastikote (now NLA?)

https://www.amazon.ca/PlastiKote-624-Rust-Converter-oz/dp/B000CPI0R8

on various spots on my '81 undercarriage. I should inspect, see how its holding up. That bus had a belly pan for most of its' life. It sure helped protect part of the undercarriage.

Neil.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: POR15 vs. EPOXY PRIMER for underbody rust (quick but permanent)? Reply with quote

Never heard of MasterSeries, but I will say I switched from POR-15 to RustBullet and RustBullet seems to be a better product. Doesn't seem to get brittle and has better texture for topcoat. POR-15 I've always felt the need to sand if I was going to spray something on top of it.
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