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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34022 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:35 pm Post subject: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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I wanted to start a separate thread which will relate to several existing threads about VW prototypes and the Ganz vehicles.
The focus here is to post photos of cars which either resemble or influenced the body design of the Beetle. I've seen several, posted here, and I'm sure there are more.
Full disclosure: the idea is mainly to debunk the myth that "Ganz invented the VW Beetle" but I also thought it would make an interesting photo survey of similar streamlined cars of the era, both those related to the VW and those that are not.
Starting off is Ganz's 1933 Standard Superior, which started much of the ruckus.
Keep in mind this is strictly a two-seater, and very narrow as well, though this isn't evident from the proportions. See a photo with two aboard and it becomes obvious. Clearly this would not meet the requirements for a 4-5 seater that could reach 100kmh.
But there are others. It would be helpful to dive into the design/build dates to come up with a rough timeline for the body and other design elements, but it's beyond me at the moment. I expect there is so much overlap that it is not clear cut, anyway.
Here is a NSU Type 32. See the link below for a more thorough discussion of this car and its relatives:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=670365
I borrowed from the thread for photos and notes; sorry to repeat but it informs this thread. It's a worthy read at 8 pages.
And there is the Zundapp Type 12:
And the here is the Porsche type 7, the Wanderer prototype of 1930. The sweep at the rear is similar.
This is identified as the Type 32 prototype:
Benz took a shot with their 120 H in the early '30s:
And here is a Tatra 77 prototype:
Later there was the 1937 Lancia April:
And still later the 1939 Hanomag:
So hopefully this puts to rest the leap from "similar bodywork" to "inventing the Volkswagen Beetle."
Last edited by KTPhil on Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:16 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Splitdog Samba Split Personality
Joined: February 16, 2004 Posts: 4125 Location: Planet VW
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Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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Nice, Phil. I take back about a tenth of what I said about you. _________________ CH³NO²
Z = z² + C
Der Blitzkrieg Kafers
#notacallooker |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22728 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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Splitdog wrote: |
Nice, Phil. I take back about a tenth of what I said about you. |
That might be more meaningful if anyone cared... just sayin'. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Splitdog Samba Split Personality
Joined: February 16, 2004 Posts: 4125 Location: Planet VW
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Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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You cared enough to reply. And I love you for it. _________________ CH³NO²
Z = z² + C
Der Blitzkrieg Kafers
#notacallooker |
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finster Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012 Posts: 7951 Location: north o' the border
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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:37 am Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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also the steyr 50 from the late 30s
and hansa 400
skoda popular sport 1935
I would have chosen the small tatra V570 of 1933 which is the lawsuit one
_________________ "we're here on Earth to fart around" kurt vonnegut
nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect...
Last edited by finster on Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:04 am; edited 2 times in total |
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finster Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012 Posts: 7951 Location: north o' the border
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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:54 am Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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and copying the beetle:-
DKW f9 prototype 1939
renault 4cv prototype 1942
_________________ "we're here on Earth to fart around" kurt vonnegut
nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect... |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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I wish i had pics, but I dont. but toyots had a car, the publica.. yup car for the public..it looked like a bug but squished down a little, fenders more like type 3 or a mix of type 1&3 ...it had a air cooled opposed....2 cylinder... and almost as slow a a vw diesel rabbit truck..or poop falling out of a dogs butt. we had one back in the early 70's it may of been a 59 but my brain is telling me it was a 61....we did have a 61 or 2 giha....so...my brain my be mixing them up a tad. it was painted flightline orange.with a brush..and it flowed out oh so smooth. |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22728 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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Subaru 360- talk about a scary ride, esp. when piloted by my crazy Korean college buddy who owned one!
_________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Q-Dog Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010 Posts: 8700 Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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1934 Chrysler Airflow. It is a front engine large car, but the shape is there.
_________________ Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle |
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finster Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012 Posts: 7951 Location: north o' the border
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Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:03 am Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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the shape and styling of the beetle was following the thoughts of the time - streamlining was the trend and perpendicular was old fashioned. plus having a rear mounted air-cooled engine means you aren't going to need a boxy radiator up front. and basically the porsche design team were surrounded by examples of this trend. you can see the evolution in porsche thinking with the old school boxy first zundapp body design - basically an ordinary saloon with a box at the back for the engine and a pressing replacing the rad. must have taken them 10mins to come up with that!
which quickly evolved into the more 'modern' driving zundapp prototype which still had a traditional shaped nose - basically a mini wanderer
then by the time they're working on the nsu they've realised the fake rad can be smoothed away like on this skoda 932 of 1932
_________________ "we're here on Earth to fart around" kurt vonnegut
nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect... |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34022 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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This old photo was just posted here. Two bug-shaped cars visible. Anyone know what they are?
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3988 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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finster Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012 Posts: 7951 Location: north o' the border
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Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:59 am Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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the split window one to the left is a hanomag and the oval one next to the vert is a ford 'buckel' or humpback taunus
_________________ "we're here on Earth to fart around" kurt vonnegut
nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect... |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22670 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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Q-Dog wrote: |
1934 Chrysler Airflow. It is a front engine large car, but the shape is there.
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It’s a Split! _________________ .ssS! |
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iowegian Samba Curmudgeon
Joined: February 16, 2005 Posts: 9829 Location: Somewhere between Dubuque and Keokuk
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Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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Abscate wrote: |
Q-Dog wrote: |
1934 Chrysler Airflow. It is a front engine large car, but the shape is there.
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It’s a Split! |
Is it a "Split" or a "Splitty"? |
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finster Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012 Posts: 7951 Location: north o' the border
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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^^ which influenced a range of pre-war peugeots
_________________ "we're here on Earth to fart around" kurt vonnegut
nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect... |
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Floating VW Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015 Posts: 1597 Location: The South Zone
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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finster wrote: |
and copying the beetle:-
DKW f9 prototype 1939
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The famous VW prototype #3806 was taken behind the Iron Curtain from Germany at the end of WWII, probably as a spoil of war by a returning Russian solder, and registered as a DKW. I assume whoever tried to pass it off as a DKW was thinking of the above model, the f9, because it's the only DKW I've ever seen that even comes close in appearance.
Here's the story of the 3806, from finding its butchered carcass in a field in Lithuania, to an immaculate return to its original condition, if anyone wants another good read: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=340552&highlight=vw+3806 _________________ "It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12744 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:00 am Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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That was the styling of most everything back in the late '30s and through the '40s American and in Europe. The only thing that made the Beetle special was that VW never upgraded it to stay with modern styling. In the mid '70s to well into the '80s every small car looked a Rabbit, now you are hard pressed to tell the difference between a Jetta, Honda, Toyota or small Ford.
It's all just styling trends and the players all copy each other.
Can you tell one SUV from another without reading the name tags? They all look like pregnant potato beetles. |
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Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9654 Location: Pearl River, NY
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Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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Mr. finster, do you think the man in your photo could be young Ferry Porsche? |
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finster Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012 Posts: 7951 Location: north o' the border
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Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:50 am Post subject: Re: Beetle predecessors/influences/imposters |
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^^ yes mr rome (keeping it formal) that is ferry porsche _________________ "we're here on Earth to fart around" kurt vonnegut
nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect... |
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