2.3 rebuild research

[90weekender]

Hello All,

I’m at 130k with my 90 Weekender Westy and she needs a head gasket. This looks like a perfect time for a rebuild, and the best practices for a 2.2 are clear And simple to me. Bigger pistons, ratio rockets, CB cam, etc.

But a 2.3 kit from gowesty seems like an excellent option as well and only a little more money. About $700 more than the 2.2 build. Seems totally worth the little extra money but I’m worried about the specifics of engine case “clearancing” and see no examples on the samba or he larger www.

Can anyone share their experience building up a 2.3 and clearancing the block? My hope is that we can create a single thread to capture this black art.

Finally, I apologize if someone has already started this thread. I used the search...I promise, but found no answers.

Thanks Amigos!
Rick

[Howesight]

I can`t help with the particulars on a 2.3 build, but I will chime in with a comment - - build for higher than stock compression, use a knock control system (like the J&S Safegaurd system), and use an after market air-oil separator like the Mann Pro-Vent.

See the posts by JBerger on his experience with knock control and the Mann air-oil separator:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=563283&highlight=
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'86 Syncro Westy SVX

[hdenter]

Seems to me the best person to answer your question is GoWesty. AFAIK, the 2.3 doesn't require clearancing. I know someone who has one and he can climb the local 6% grade in the fast lane. I think the 2.3 is a great motor if you don't mind the extra $.

Hans
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'79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender

[16CVs]

Rebuilding the engine is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. If the van runs fine and does not use a crap load of oil. Have them pull the heads, clean the pits and put new head seals on and go on your way.
Spend the money on your “MULTIVAN” doing some other improvement. Have you changed your coolant lines and all plastic to SS? Have you changed your brake fluid and replaced your rubber lines?
Is the issue that the heads are leaking or that you want a little more power. Even if you did upgrade your engine you would still need to do all of those other items as well.
Years ago I helped a friend do a V8 conversion on his Jaguar. The kit was perfect in every way, well thought out and no wire or bolt unthought. While reading through the install manual, there was something that has stuck in my minds for years. I’ll paraphrase because I don’t remember exact verbiage but it boiled down to the fact that an engine upgrade is not going to replace worn ball joints or service your half shafts.
I mention this because I have seen so many vehicles that have had engine changes and updates and the rest of the car suffers from deferred maintenance.
Just something to think about.

Stacy
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1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread.

[MayorMcCheese]

Pic of case clearancing here

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=40

[MarkWard]

Extra clearance can be required on any engine you “soup up”. My race engines get built 3 times. The first time is to check all clearances etc. Second time is to make sure all the clearing is correct. Then after any corrections, it’s final assembly. Paying attention to all the details.

I recall reading the “case” may need clearance with the bigger bore kit. Since the cylinders fit the stock case, and stock crank stroke and rods are used, I can only imagine the larger piston skirt may contact some case material.

Generally you’d need .050” clearance between any rotating parts. This allows for expansion and slight stretching.

So, you’d have to assemble a few times to get the clearance correct. We use clay for measuring tight areas we can’t measure assembled. It is tedious, but is necessary. Add more stroke, longer rods, high lift cams, high compression pistons it really becomes tedious.

I imagine the clearance required for the GW kit is minor, but it would require some tools, multiple assembles, to get it right.

When you figure the labor and tools required to do it correctly a pro built
engine with a warranty is a pretty good deal.
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[90weekender]

Thanks for the information shared by all.

With regards to upgrading other systems on the van...I've got over $20k in receipts since I purchased the van from the original Owner here in SoCal. My skill level is advanced...not expert...I've been restoring, building, racing and designing cars for 30 years...plenty of failures...so I've learned a few things.

Vanagons are easy, fun and keep me fit...wife calls it "westy-yoga". So I've upgraded just about every system over the past 10 years with the highest quality parts available. The engine is the last frontier.

Here's a nice shot of our van:

Also, the engine breathers and other systems to mitigate high compression are expensive and complex. If these are truly required for a long lasting 2.3, I will personally choose the 2.2. After scouring the links provided for the case modifications and searching the web, I found these images for reference:

Modifying the inside of the case to for crank shaft clearance. I believe this iage below is for a 2.3:

I've also found these images of connecting rod mods:

Go Westy 2.2 and 2.3 rods with beveled edges where material has been removed:

2.3

2.2 (very different crank counterweight!!??)

CB Performance 5.40" H section Race Rods below:

The CB website claims: "The rod caps are engineered to reduce the amount of internal case clearancing inquired to drop in a stroker crank. You can run strokes up to 76mm without case clearancing."

The GW 2.3 has a 79.5mm stroke crankshaft, so from these numbers alone (not form direct observation)...one would need to remove 3.5 MM of material...somewhere in the case to use these CB rods. They look delicious, but hat's a lot of material.

On the topic of the CB rods above, I don't know if they are feasible. Stock length rod is 5.3??" inches...so these 5.40" rods would be .01" too long. Has anyone used these 5.40" rods on a waterboxer?

Thanks All,
Rick

[Vanagon Nut]

To my eye it looks like new metal was welded to the 2.3 crank and that relatively speaking, a "lot" more material is removed from the 2.3 rods. Those two aspects alone would convince me to go with a 2.2 I mean how much more real world power, acceleration, does a 2.3 get over a 2.2 ?

Neil.

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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[MarkWard]

Didn’t realize the GW 2.3 had a stroked crank. Yes you can run out of room quickly when you add stroke and or counter weights.
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[90weekender]

So if the 2.3 crank above has a lot of metal added to it, I wonder if this cut I've highlighted in red below is a done by GW for clearance, or is this the stock surface.

[MarkWard]

[90weekender]

Thanks clarifying Mark.

@ hdenter, I may know enough now to ask Gowesty the right questions.

I'll report back after I call them.


1.) How do they know what size cam timing gear fits my crank shaft timing gear?

Sales person did not know what I was referring to and said "it all fits...?...it's no problem." This sounds like a misunderstanding to I will call back and speak to a different service rep. and ask again.


2.) Do I need a knock sensor/mitigation system?

Rep. did not answer directly but said their EFI has a knock sensor in it. I this t mean that a 2.3 needs a knock sensor or it my not last long...my words.


3.) Which rockers are they using?

1.25 with stock fasteners.



R

[90weekender]

Below are more pictures of 2.3 case mods being done. These were found on this FB page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/vw-t3-vanagon-wbx-waterboxer-wasserboxer-engines-197865313987406/

The owner is looking for guidance...as am I. Mark Pluygers on the aformentioned page says "...don't try this conversion unless you are truly an expert engineer..."

[MarkWard]

I would not like to do that to an engine that I wanted to last. Would like to see a photo of the piston. They can't really make the skirt much shorter looking at the wrist pin location or mpve the wrist pin up looking at the underside of the crown of the piston. I wonder how close the oil ring is from coming out of the cylinder. Overall, it looks like the extra stroke is pulling the piston way out of the cylinder into an area of the case that the piston was not intended to go.

If it were me, I'd stick to stock stroke.
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[MayorMcCheese]

Does the piston really travel that far out of the cylinder on a 2.3? It looks like the poster may have just pushed it all the way down? That seems extreme.

[90weekender]

+1 Mark,

This looks scary. Damm. I really wanted to build a 2.3, but it's too risky for me.

Unless someone out there can shine more light on the 2.3 case mods that are not compromising the structure and require another $500 of knock sensor tech...I'm moving on down to a hot rod 2.2.

Thanks All,
Rick

[90weekender]

[yellowjacket]

I would strongly recommend contacting Rocky Jennings with your questions.

https://rockyjennings.com/

If I was to keep a wbx in my Vanagon, this is the route I'd be going. There are several threads on this in the Samba, use the search or Google.

Good luck, Dan
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86 Syncro Westy - Bostig RG11
71 Squareback

[4Gears4Tires]

[MarkWard]

Agreed maybe I assumed to much from the person fitting the piston. Without it attached to the crank and the crank set in the case, you really can’t say for sure how much clearance is required.

I’d be more inclined to dress the piston skirt where it might contact. There are successful 2.3 engines running out there. What’s weird in the picture above is the “hole” in the case. Wish I had clearer memory of the case.
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