| Author |
Message |
SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
 Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:59 pm Post subject: would you shim this rocker TIV |
 |
|
First time I have ever run into this but they are new AMC heads and not stock VW heads. I suspect there will be others. The #1 exhaust is not properly centered on the valve. Would you shim this rocker arm? If yes why and if no why not. My own thinking is yes to avoid guide and screw wear. However that will put more pressure on the wavy springs. I also have a stock set up with the big center spring available but that will not change the location, just the center spring force. This is a solid lifter cam. Those thread like things are wisps of grease. (I will sand the shim to get it the right thickness if I use one, just grabbed a spare one to see how much it would change the rocker.) I also haven't tried any other to see if they are better positioned. I could try to bend it a fraction using a press too.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Nightshift
Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2019
Posts: 222
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
| Get rid of your springy thingy's and shim the rockers correctly. No need for wavy washers/springy things. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
| Nightshift wrote: |
| Get rid of your springy thingy's and shim the rockers correctly. No need for wavy washers/springy things. |
Type IV setup. Different size shafts and washers than Type 1.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nightshift
Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2019
Posts: 222
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
| SGKent wrote: |
| Nightshift wrote: |
| Get rid of your springy thingy's and shim the rockers correctly. No need for wavy washers/springy things. |
Type IV setup. Different size shafts and washers than Type 1. |
ok. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nightshift
Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2019
Posts: 222
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
| SGKent wrote: |
| Nightshift wrote: |
| Get rid of your springy thingy's and shim the rockers correctly. No need for wavy washers/springy things. |
Type IV setup. Different size shafts and washers than Type 1. |
ok. Makes sense |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
| Nightshift wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| Nightshift wrote: |
| Get rid of your springy thingy's and shim the rockers correctly. No need for wavy washers/springy things. |
Type IV setup. Different size shafts and washers than Type 1. |
ok. Makes sense |
I wish the type 1 washers worked for us, it would make life so much simpler. The shaft size is different. We have 4 rocker shafts ( 2 a head) whereas type 1 has 2 (1 a head). Each TIV shaft has two arms on it.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nightshift
Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2019
Posts: 222
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
Get the the solid rocker arm spacers that European Motor Works in Hawthorne, CA sells and set up your rockers with them.
They do require some work to use. Sometimes you have to narrow them.
I use them on my type 4 engine. I don't trust any wave/spring washer in valve train when using a different then stock cam.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3286
Location: Rapid City, SD
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
Run the solid center spacer, and order the correct diameter shims from Mcmaster Carr. They have a huge assortment of thickness's.
I always run my adjusters off center on purpose to help the valve rotate.
Brian
_________________
www.type-emotorsports.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
| Brian_e wrote: |
I always run my adjusters off center on purpose to help the valve rotate.
Brian |
hi sir. i am curious to know why this helps? or how it works actually would be better wordage. not that i doubt you, but i was just curious. so, as long as the adjuster is covering the whole valve stem, it wont put any sideways force on the valve and guide? does this only apply to elephant feet adjusters?
thanks
aiden
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21511
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
| SGKent wrote: |
First time I have ever run into this but they are new AMC heads and not stock VW heads. I suspect there will be others. The #1 exhaust is not properly centered on the valve. Would you shim this rocker arm? If yes why and if no why not. My own thinking is yes to avoid guide and screw wear. However that will put more pressure on the wavy springs. I also have a stock set up with the big center spring available but that will not change the location, just the center spring force. This is a solid lifter cam. Those thread like things are wisps of grease. (I will sand the shim to get it the right thickness if I use one, just grabbed a spare one to see how much it would change the rocker.) I also haven't tried any other to see if they are better positioned. I could try to bend it a fraction using a press too.
|
Yes.....I think you should shim it. Off-center a bit is good...maybe .020" off centerline...but that ones a little too far off.
Also as others have noted....get rid of the wavy washers . Any of the solid rocker spacer kits can fix this.
You appear to already have the stockish solid spacers....you just need some more shims.
I think I posted a mcmaster carr part number for correct size that matches up to a rocker shaft shim a few months back I will dig it up.
Give it about .003" total slack. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
thicker or thinner center spacers won't move the rocker towards it.
Yes valves need a little sweep to rotate. This arm is so far off center my fear is the valve would look like a merry-go-round. I'll check the other exhaust rocker arms and see if any have a bit more offset. I don't know if it is safe to bend a rocker arm .020" - ,025", which is about what that one needs. Never done that, has anyone?
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21511
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
| SGKent wrote: |
thicker or thinner center spacers won't move the rocker towards it.
Yes valves need a little sweep to rotate. This arm is so far off center my fear is the valve would look like a merry-go-round. I'll check the other exhaust rocker arms and see if any have a bit more offset. I don't know if it is safe to bend a rocker arm .020" - ,025", which is about what that one needs. Never done that, has anyone? |
With Porsche style adjusters...too far off center can be a little hard on teh adjusters as well.
Yep....You need some shims. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
When compared to a stock adjuster the swivel foot rotates itself whereas the stock adjuster screw does not. How much if any rotation occurs with a swivel compared to a stock adjuster?
Likely much less. The issue is the side load the stock screws put onto the valve guide/s. That is effectively eliminated with swivel adjusters.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GARRICK.CLARK
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2012
Posts: 1267
Location: Lancashire UK
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:04 am Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
When at full lift on each valve, check the push rod to push rod tube clearance as well
I had to machine the side of the Rocker blocks to move some of the Rocker's further over to stop the push rods touching the tubes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21511
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:28 am Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
| udidwht wrote: |
When compared to a stock adjuster the swivel foot rotates itself whereas the stock adjuster screw does not. How much if any rotation occurs with a swivel compared to a stock adjuster?
Likely much less. The issue is the side load the stock screws put onto the valve guide/s. That is effectively eliminated with swivel adjusters. |
Yes and no......the side load on the valve guides is reduced by a swivel foot......but off-center is off-center. Force is force. When you are too far off-center there is still "some" side load to valve guides that you can get rid of.
The other issue.....when the swivel foot is not in contact with the valve tip....it will float. It has tolerance inside between ball and cup....and with lash..between cup and valve tip. This will occasionally cock the swivel foot sideways by a couple of degrees when its at TDC.
Then it slams back down....and has to level itself. This starts a ring shaped wear pattern on the swivel foot face. Eventually it stops turning so well. When it wears through the hardening....it can crack the swivel foot.
I dont use cheap swivel feet....so I like to get the full 300k miles out of mine  ....just shim the rocker shafts.
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
the outcome was that by shuffling exhaust rocker arms around, I was able to get a good fit on all. If one puts a screw in it hits about 1/2 way between the outside and the center of the valve. Might use screws to break it in. That way I know where the wear is. That said, last heads, RIMCO, on one cylinder the screws wore a little into the valve tips. I had to retip all the valves and then make sure they were still within factory allowances for stem height.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21511
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:16 am Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
| SGKent wrote: |
| the outcome was that by shuffling exhaust rocker arms around, I was able to get a good fit on all. If one puts a screw in it hits about 1/2 way between the outside and the center of the valve. Might use screws to break it in. That way I know where the wear is. That said, last heads, RIMCO, on one cylinder the screws wore a little into the valve tips. I had to retip all the valves and then make sure they were still within factory allowances for stem height. |
Great to hear!
Also....did you get rid of the wavy spring washers? You should.
Because the rocker arms are at an angle....a helix technically...to the bearing surface on the rocker shaft....they always generate side load and force the rocker sideways out of alignment. It oscillates...and the wavy spring washers allow it to oscillate sideways. Yes...they return it to position...but its oscillation under load....which causes wear to both swivel feet and rocker shaft.
It works better with less ear to put solid shims in and limit the lateral travel to within a set tolerance. Typically bout .003" is excellent. And....ideally....the set up needs to have a shim on each side of the rocker between the rocker and the steel pedestal. This puts any and all of the long term wear on the replaceable shim and not the rocker stand.
This is why many of us have bothered to look around for available shims that can allow us to mix and match.
This is also why the solid spacer kits from the type 4 store...all come longer than necessary because you WILL have to sand/lap the spacer tubes to fit exactly with the shim set you select. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nsracing
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9461
Location: NOVA
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
The tips are supposed to be offset some to facilitate rotation. if you have none rotation will give you a weird wear pattern in the balls..or sockets.
And I don't remember Type IVs having wave shims. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21511
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: would you shim this rocker TIV |
|
|
| nsracing wrote: |
The tips are supposed to be offset some to facilitate rotation. if you have none rotation will give you a weird wear pattern in the balls..or sockets.
And I don't remember Type IVs having wave shims. |
Yep....The stock set up was springs between shims up against rockers.....in the 1,7L.
Going off memory...I think either the 1.8's or the 2.0's when they came with hydraulics.....has a solid spacer set up and may have had wavy washers I am not sure.
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
