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bcrazy
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2009
Posts: 231
Location: Oslo
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 Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:14 pm Post subject: 1641 SP build |
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This has probably been debated before, but I have searched and still have questions..
1300 F case, stock crank/6v flywheel
87 mm slip ins
new 1600 SP heads
Stock cam with maybe 1.25 rockers
Dual 34 ICT
Thri-mill hot dog exhaust
8-8,5:1
Will replace stock 1200 in 63 beetle
1. will i need to eight dowel the crank and flywheel?
2. Hp estimate? |
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Pruneman99
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Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: 1641 SP build |
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I wouldn't bother 8 dowelling the crank.
60 hp + or - 20  |
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Lingwendil
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Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Danwvw
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Location: Oregon Coast
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jbbugs
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Joined: September 16, 2002
Posts: 2152
Location: Behind the wheel
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:15 am Post subject: Re: 1641 SP build |
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I built a 1641 SP engine for my GF’s 68 Bug. I used a CB 2229 cam.
Mildly ported heads, stock carb.
Had everything balanced. It is a real pleasure to drive. Super smooth at any rpm’s. She put 10k miles on it in the last year. She parked her Xterra and drives the Bug daily.
IMO- Lose the ICT’s. They always idle like crap, and the the throttle shafts wear out fairly quick. I also haven’t seen a linkage for them that I like.
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bcrazy
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2009
Posts: 231
Location: Oslo
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:27 am Post subject: Re: 1641 SP build |
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| What dual carb setup do you recommend? Is not the stock carb and manifold the most limiting parts to HP on these motors? |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12708
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:07 am Post subject: Re: 1641 SP build |
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| bcrazy wrote: |
| What dual carb setup do you recommend? Is not the stock carb and manifold the most limiting parts to HP on these motors? |
On a dual port head yes for sure but with single port heads it may be the heads themselves that are the bottle neck.
I am presently building a very similar engine. A 1641 single port for our sand rail and am debating whether to stay with a single carb (it's out of direct fire of the rear tires) or go with a pair of Kadrons that I have and make shields to protect them. I personally think the Kadies are a bit oversized for the job but maybe I could find smaller venturies for them.
I am expecting about 60 hp max as others have said with very mild porting, stock cam and 1.25 rockers on the intakes.
As for needing to have 8 dowels on the crank - how do you drive? I have seen guys break that connection with a stock 1200 40 HP engine from gross abuse. The rest of us are going to be fine with the stock set up. |
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Lingwendil
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Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:11 am Post subject: Re: 1641 SP build |
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Read some of Alstrup's posts. He has been building bigger engines with 34PICT-3 carbs for years. Yes, it will limit horsepower compared to dual carbs, but you will still have increased power and torque from the larger displacement. A common build is a 1776 with a mild cam and a 34PICT-3. It works well if you choose the cam right. If I'm not mistaken it's the end castings and manifold, rather than the carb that's the real limiting factor.
I ran a dual port 1776 with a 34-3 and 110 cam for a while and that thing was a rocket, if a little poor idle under 1000rpm. Not my choice, but it came in the car 
If you are able to go for dual carbs, a pair of ICT or Solex on single port manifolds would be a nicer way to go for power for sure. Running a single could be a good challenge, but will look and act like stock. It's all in where you want to put the money or work.
I'm eventually going to build a bigger single port, and may go for 1776 with a 34PICT-3, larger venturi, CB center section, and the aftermarket end castings to use the manifold on single port heads. It would be an engine meant for torque over horsepower, so would be a good way to use mostly stock parts.
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Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
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bcrazy
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2009
Posts: 231
Location: Oslo
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:14 am Post subject: Re: 1641 SP build |
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| Drive kinda «spirited» may do hard shifts from 1-2-3 but, do not dump the clutch at the lights(street). |
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Lingwendil
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Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:42 am Post subject: Re: 1641 SP build |
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Eh, it's up to you. Good insurance if you decide to drive like a hooligan one time too many. If a local shop to you is able to modify your existing parts for it go for it. If you need to buy the parts new you can easily find them already done.
I've broken the dowels in a 1600 single port with four dowels before, but that was with an aftermarket flywheel. It was while driving normally, and happened while pulling away from a stop. 
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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12708
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:51 am Post subject: Re: 1641 SP build |
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| I used to do the occasional clutch dump at the lights in my youth and got away with it (stock 1600 DP) but it was more good luck than good management and the fact that my tires were not too sticky. Spirited driving should not be a problem. |
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BFB
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Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1757
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:04 am Post subject: Re: 1641 SP build |
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i have no experience with s.p. but a buddy of mine put a 2021 s.p. in his bus and says he loves it. i dont know what carbs he has or how he drives it, my guess would be pretty easy though as its a dd bus..
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Alstrup
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Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7212
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:32 am Post subject: Re: 1641 SP build |
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In 2011 I thnk it was, a German customer approached me wanting to explore options with a 1914 displacement, sgl ports and Kadrons. There was some frames to stay within, one of them was no lumpy idle. We went through 3 cams, 2 sets of heads and 3 different exhausts. Best set up gave us 114 hp, but the guy didnt want that exhaust, so another set up was made which resulted in a final product of 104 hp and about 160 Nm torque, - with an almost stock like idle.
Since then I have learned a thing or two about porting, - and porting sgl port heads, so today I could have pulled a wider torque band and 5-6 more hp in basicly the same set up.
I will not recommend 94 mm bore with sgl ports. The heads barely have enough material to support the bore properly. 90,5 bore (92 thickwall at the most) and more stroke is better.
ICT´s. Ahh, well, they are cheap. I guess that their largest advantage. They can be made to work well, but it takes a little effort. A set of rebuilt Kadrons with a decent linkage would be my choice of the 2.
Power. Hmm yeah, if you build it well around 65 hp.
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Lingwendil
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Alstrup
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Joined: July 12, 2007
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Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:58 am Post subject: Re: 1641 SP build |
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It will run alright, with a somewhat rough idle though.
I have found that the 2280 cam w. split 1,25/1,1 rockers works very well in sgl port set ups with such intake and around 1800 cc. I have pulled well over 80 hp @ 4300 rpm and 150ish Nm torque with detailed heads. Also those engines have PURFECT idle at 850 rpm.
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bcrazy
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2009
Posts: 231
Location: Oslo
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:59 am Post subject: Re: 1641 SP build |
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| I have simulated the engine with engine analazyer pro, and with different camshafts. It seems as soon as duration goes higher than 230@50, it looses a lot of low end, with very few more hp at top end. |
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Lingwendil
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: 1641 SP build |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
It will run alright, with a somewhat rough idle though.
I have found that the 2280 cam w. split 1,25/1,1 rockers works very well in sgl port set ups with such intake and around 1800 cc. I have pulled well over 80 hp @ 4300 rpm and 150ish Nm torque with detailed heads. Also those engines have PURFECT idle at 850 rpm. |
Interesting!
Has anyone tried the PBIC-32 carburetors like the 56 356 Porsche's had on a 1600 single port? WW sells reproduction PBIC-32X26 Cheap!
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Alstrup
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Posts: 7212
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: 1641 SP build |
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| bcrazy wrote: |
| I have simulated the engine with engine analazyer pro, and with different camshafts. It seems as soon as duration goes higher than 230@50, it looses a lot of low end, with very few more hp at top end. |
That is correct, with some modifications. The Analyzer can not tell you everything, but it can give you a good hint.
If you want it all to happen before 4000 rpm and have great lower rpm torque, go with the CB 2232 cam. If you prefer a little more rpm go with the 2280
| Danwvw wrote: |
Interesting!
Has anyone tried the PBIC-32 carburetors like the 56 356 Porsche's had on a 1600 single port? WW sells reproduction PBIC-32X26 Cheap! |
They work just about as any other Solex for small engines. They need some work out of the box, but normally doable. I have canned a couple that were simply too rough though. I actually like the stock type 3 32 PDSIT´s and early 34´s, but they are getting kinda expensive (timeconsuming) to get back to good running condition, so I do understand that people are searching for alternatives.
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bcrazy
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Joined: October 24, 2009
Posts: 231
Location: Oslo
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: 1641 SP build |
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But the cb2232 has more duration @50 than the 2280.
Should it not give less low down torque than the 2280? |
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