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63 Ghia headlight question
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Big Mike Cbad
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:39 pm    Post subject: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

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Hi all, I need some help. Looked over the search results and found lots of threads on headlights, but didn't find what I needed so apologies if this was covered and I missed it.

I have a 63 Ghia vert I'm restoring. Its a late 63 and was a basket case which was pulled apart with pieces missing and extra parts that don't match up etc when I bought it. My headlight bucket has one tab in the 7 oclock position which appears to be pre-64 if I read the threads correctly. Looks like 64 and up have 3 mounting tabs inside the bucket. Mine has a lip at the very top of the bucket (pictured) and the pic of the ring with the 3 holes with screws which mount to the retaining ring which appears to be correct for my 63 if I understood it correctly. Also that car had body damage which complicated it a bit. You'll see some holes around the bucket which I assume are from an old dent puller.

Looking over the parts diagram I believe it would be the third set of pictures in those drawings, but can't figure out what I've read about 2 rings needed (one painted, one chrome) why the carrying ring part 141 941 041 seems to have 3 tabs, how the retaining ring fits in and doesn't stick way out if the carrying ring sits flush against that single mounting tab and finally where the heck to find parts. Looks like 64 3 tab is easy to find with re-pops, but didnt see anything for my year. I also have some Hella SB12 retaining rings and chrome cover rings which do not appear to be for this car, but I guess I could change out the buckets to 3 tab and use them.

Need help badly if anyone can sift through this messy question I posted.
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carlk3
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

That is a confusing subject. I have a '64 'vert. Decades ago I bought new Headlight Retainer Assemblies (carrying rings) at the actual VW dealer in town. Well, they did not fit at all. What I have looks a lot like yours. According to the "birth cert.", mine was originally delivered to the Netherlands, so that might have complicated things. Euro spec.? Special order by a US serviceman with the intent of moving it to the states eventually? Who knows.

Anyway, in my case both outer rings are chrome, not painted.

I need to replace my headlight plugs (which are identical to yours), and I will get some photos while I have it apart. Dang, I thought I had already ordered those.

I also have some spare headlight parts. Will photo those, too.
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Big Mike Cbad
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

Thanks so much. Would love some help. Looking at the parts diagram online doesnt help and I don't have two of anything just a bunch of random parts the owner collected so I have to buy everything. I do have two sets of the newer stuff that I don't think works for my car.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

OK, here's what I'm running now:

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These are the headlight carriers that I bought at the VW dealer (these did NOT work for me, but they are ostensibly for a '64):

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Here are some leftover spare rings:

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Here are a couple other carriers:

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Notice that they are two different types (one vs. two leg on the back)! (But maybe backward compatible.) I think I have something like these on the car now. So, right here, you have three different types of Ghia headlight carriers (0, 1, and 2 legs).
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Big Mike Cbad
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

interesting. I've got several of those parts including the SB12 retaining rings and chrome cover rings but do not think they are for a pre 64. I only have the one tab to mount the carrying rings to the body and yours look like the 3 tab, but not sure from the pics. Do you recall if yours had the carry rings with 3 tabs?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

I'll have to take it apart and look. I was thinking about it, and now I think that out of all of those carriers I have I may have ended up putting the original rusty ones back in. So, those might be different still.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

No worries and please don't pull yours apart. Maybe other folks that have been through this will have some feedback. In case I need to buy some parts I might ping you back if those are extra!!!

Appreciate the follow up and pics
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

I will be pulling them apart shortly, when my new plugs arrive. Just ordered a pair from WW. I've been getting some flickering in my 6V LED headlights, and I know those connectors are really corroded. I put in a new wiring harness 10 years (or so) ago, but it didn't come with headlight plugs, so I reused the old ones.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

OK, I have completed my headlight overhaul, and I took a bunch of pictures -- too many for the Gallery, so here is a link to a Google Photos album:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Kqnw5dBtZH3L3X6t7

Interestingly, regarding the one-leg vs. two-leg retainer assemblies, I have a two footer on the driver side and a one-footer on the passenger side. In my spare parts I also have one of each. I don't know if that's right, or correct, and there's a difference between the left and right assemblies, or if I just mixed up matched sets.

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Anyway, yes, it looks like I have three mounting tabs in the headlight bucket for the retainer assembly.

Hope this helps.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

Thanks for the pics and link to the gallery. It is helpful. I think the guy that owned the car before me intended to use the set up you have so I have a few of those parts, but only have the single tab to mount those so may need to convert it to the newer three tab set up. Really appreciate the follow up.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:22 am    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

My understanding of the Ghia headlights is that until MY 1960 the headlights were of the non sealed beam type. From MY61 thru the first few months of MY 64 it had the first style of sealed beam and later cars used the second more common style.

So, from the parts diag, your 63 would have originally used the type listed in the middle (second) diag in the parts manual.

The sealed beam unit would fit into the inner chrome ring and be held in position by 3 retaining springs.

The outer rim would screw into the body/bucket with one screw in the 6 O'clock position.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback. I only have one set of the 3 spring set up I think you are mentioning and its totally trashed and not reusable. Haven't seen the parts anywhere to purchase so stumped on what to do. I do have the 64 style SB12 retaining rings and beauty rings which are for the 3 tab style and looks like they make re-pops of the inner plates so not sure which direction to go from here. Don't think I can find good replacements of the original parts I need.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

You could convert to the 64-on style by welding in the tabs or buying new headlight buckets and welding them in.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

At this point that's what I'm thinking since I have some of the newer parts that are in good shape vs. trying to find decent pre 64 parts. Seems easier to put in new buckets or weld in tabs since I have to do metal work anyway. Thanks for the feedback.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

You’ll find the information in this thread pertinent to your questions.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=614277

I posted a sequence of photos of my original ’66 headlight setup in this thread.... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=718949
This should be the same as your model and you get a good view o the bucket and how it all assembles

The parts book shows three main styles of headlight. You can download a copy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/1972_ghia_parts_book.php
Headlights are in section 9 at page 704 which has illustration 34 grouping the three main types. The pages that follow give clues about which is right for a particular model year. The M codes are associated with the options for particular markets and deciphering those is a study in itself. We can give you pointers i you wan o get into that sort of minutiae.

Nicholas
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

I put mine together with generic screws that will probably rust. I was thinking I should get some stainless (or chromed?) hardware. But, does anyone sell a kit with all the correct screws? It would really be nice to have the correct screw for the outer trim bezel. It's a pain to line up a fully-threaded screw to get it started. If I remember correctly, the original had a thin, non-threaded end to help you find the hole and get it started.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

I guess the headlight rim screw I was thinking of was the 311941195A, like

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Headlight-Rim-Screw-Se...2284086258

or

https://www.centralcaliforniadistributors.com/prod...volkswagen

but that doesn't seem to be for the Ghia, which apparently needs 141941195A, like

https://www.bughaus.com/Headlight_Ring_Screws_-_141941195A.htm

which just looks like a plain old flathead M4 screw.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

carlk3 wrote:
I guess the headlight rim screw I was thinking of was the 311941195A, like

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Headlight-Rim-Screw-Se...2284086258

or

https://www.centralcaliforniadistributors.com/prod...volkswagen

but that doesn't seem to be for the Ghia, which apparently needs 141941195A, like

https://www.bughaus.com/Headlight_Ring_Screws_-_141941195A.htm

which just looks like a plain old flathead M4 screw.



Have a look through this thread.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3902974&highlight=#3902974

This picture has a mix of right and wrong screws, especially the three on the left and the broken one in the middle
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The ones you want for the dress ring is top row third from the right.
The short ones hold the backshell in the bucket and the long cheese head screws are used for the adjusters.

Nicholas
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

sputnick60 wrote:

...
The ones you want for the dress ring is top row third from the right.
The short ones hold the backshell in the bucket and the long cheese head screws are used for the adjusters.

Nicholas


Ah yes, those are what I'm looking for! Now, where can I find them?

For now, I am thinking of getting something like this for the trim rings (bezels? what's the term I'm looking for?): Prime-Line 9121192 Machine Screws, Metric, Flat Head, Phillips Drive, M4-0.7 X 25MM, Grade A2-70 Stainless Steel, 10-Pack.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 63 Ghia headlight question Reply with quote

Thanks for all the feedback. I ordered new 3 tab headlight buckets to install since I need to do bodywork anyway and mine are slightly damaged from front end collision. Also found a complete set of headlights with all the parts I think will work so should be good to go. I appreciate everyone sending information, threads and pics to help out.
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