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gpbruce lyons
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Vancouver, BC
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 Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Expertise Wanted: Motorized wheelchair into Westy! |
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Dave and Dave O! I share your confidence in the seat securing system. My doubts arise when something is screwed into it... My thought was a steel sleeve with a collar on top pushed through the 3 layers of steel. Then use a marine grade bolt to pop in and out for the winch trailer hitch loop.
This is plastic and ribbed, I want steel and smooth. Maybe 1/2 or 5/8 bolt drop in. |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32561
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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gpbruce lyons
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Expertise Wanted: Motorized wheelchair into Westy! |
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Hi Dave! Indeed I am over thinking; zero margin for error on the Wheelchair Westy, best practices, and use all the pieces focused on the design values.
So would you tap into the hole or remove the bolt and use that nut? Any idea what size we are talking here? I believe you on the strength of eye bolts!
I want 3 layers of metal, the cover, the rail and the floor.
My idea was to drill down at an angle for the sleeve so the bolt pushed down when under load. Also to double bolt the cover to keep it from moving. It is easier to find a 1/2" hole under the floor cover then screw in an eyebolt to one layer of metal... The hole would be drilled about 1" from the cabinets.
About the overthinking, I've spent 6 months imaginerring how to solve this problem (I am no engineer) that is 3 months longer than I've been in a wheelchair. The Samba Team has been invaluable in brainstorming solutions! Also refining my thinking about what would work. There may be a better solution out there, but I am focused on this part of my journey for now.
And I am still open minded any and all solutions! |
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sanchius 
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2007
Posts: 1450
Location: IN
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gpbruce lyons
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Expertise Wanted: Motorized wheelchair into Westy! |
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| Sanchius! Thanks! Never seen anything like that! Clever! Green Eurovans are eye pleasers, have nice power, and a sketchy history with automatic transmissions. The chair lift is remarkable! Easy transfer between wheelchair and lift chair, always good! |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32561
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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gpbruce lyons
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Expertise Wanted: Motorized wheelchair into Westy! |
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Hi Dave! Yes, I think so... There would be 8 mount points working in unison to secure each seat. Easing what needs to be done to hook up is what is causing me to drag my feet on using the existing embedded nuts; finding holes and screwing them in. VS push a bolt through the rubber mat, down the hole and drop on the trailer hitch connection and go. While I appreciate better is the enemy of good enough, three layers of metal has a nice ring to it! Even if the benefit is imaginary, which I don't think it is, eh?
In my lifetime I have sheared more threaded bolts (even with a torque wrench) than I can remember happily. No sheared anything while camping is the idea, and as idiot proof as possible would be good too!
I like the Colt analogy: You drop the hammer and the magic begins! |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32561
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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gpbruce lyons
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Expertise Wanted: Motorized wheelchair into Westy! |
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Hi Dave! I like that too! The eye bolt would have to be removed after each use. Trip hazards are a real problem for me and the #2 killer of people who have what I have...
Hence, safety was my first criterion. Elegance of the solution is not on my list... |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32561
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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gpbruce lyons
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Expertise Wanted: Motorized wheelchair into Westy! |
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Hi Dave! Oddly, I have 2 GoWesty seat belt bolts sitting in my "To Be Installed" box.
Mounting to the inner would not make for a straight pull or get the chair all the way in the van. Using the drivers left side bolt would get the chair all the way in. It would not be a straight pull and would leave the winch dangling, which is what happens pulling boats. I'd have to look to see what is in the way of the winch/cable pulling around if this approach was used.
Correction, I have 4 bolts! Guess I planned on doing both campers to secure gear...
No tripping hazards with this approach! |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32561
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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gpbruce lyons
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Expertise Wanted: Motorized wheelchair into Westy! |
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Hi Dave! In your experience when it comes to pulling a car (or wheelchair) which is safer? A Diagonal Pull? Or a Straight Pull?
All the wheels have to crest the ramp for safety, all on a flat surface be it the ground or the camper kitchen.
Keeping 4 wheels on the ramp is more challenging than you would expect!
When I am no longer able, my wife will have to put the chair in the camper... |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32561
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7915
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Expertise Wanted: Motorized wheelchair into Westy! |
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| gpbruce lyons wrote: |
| Hi Dave! In your experience when it comes to pulling a car (or wheelchair) which is safer? A Diagonal Pull? Or a Straight Pull? |
When winching diagonally, use a snatch block to redirect the angle of the pull.
_________________
~Kamz 
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
 1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Expertise Wanted: Motorized wheelchair into Westy! |
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Been away a few days for my brother's terminally failing health, but have followed the topic.
Firstly, I'd like to say that you seem like a nice person and not some skanky hacker jerking our chain. We all know the pleasures of camping in our beloved "Other Woman" vehicles and really want to figure out how to help you achieve that goal.
Somehow I think this whole discussion has gone off the rails.
When designing a house the client's requirements are called the program. With boats, it's a brief. Have done both.
We have been missing some key ingredients in the program/brief--such as. What happens to the wheelchair once it is inside? It looks like it will take up all of the interior cube leaving nothing for camping. What are the dimensions of the chair overall, and what is it's footprint? What is the weight distribution on the wheels? Which are powered and does the rear wheel steer it or is it only a swivel castor and the steering is done by differential speeds of the front wheels?
Also, we need some description of the medical issue. For example, is it Guillain Barré or Myasthenia? There is no point in designing and building something that will be irrelevant in a short period of time.
Next, I looked at your list of requirements which I have labeled 1-9
The Wheelchair Westy has to be:
1. Safe
2. Simple
3. Easy to Use
4. Transparent, disappears when not in use
5. Space efficient
6. Off the Shelf
7. Rugged, low maintenance
8. All Terrain Flexible
9. Minimal Camper Modifications
In reading them I am reminded of the three ideals of a project. Cheap, Quick and Quality. Every engineer has these droned into his head with the recognition that you can only have two of the three. It can be quick and cheap, but not with quality (Reliability, safety, durability). It can be quick and be quality designed and executed, but it will be expensive. It could be cheap and be created with quality, but it will take a very long time to develop.
Just like these parameters, I find some of the 1-9 requirements mutually off setting. For instance, Off the Shelf and Easy to Use. Or 2 and 4. 4 and 9.
In any case, we all read these requirements with different perceptions, so we need to have you expand each and describe what you mean. Safe is pretty self explanatory, but what is Minimal Camper Modifications? I assume you are talking about the Vanagon here, but when does minimal become unacceptable. For example, if I design a really nice item which meets the majority of the requirements--I can guarantee I can't meet them all at 100%--and bolts to the outside of the vehicle with only two ˝" holes in the B pillar which have color matched plastic plugs when the device is not deployed, is this OK? And how much under the car can I mess with if it isn't visible or changes any of the existing components of the car?
Lastly, we need a better idea of how you would use the chair while camping. For example does it stay inside the car while you and your wife are occupying the interior at a site or do you transfer it outside once you have arrived? If that is the case, how do you get back inside the car? If you can walk now with hand rails, can't it just be towed behind in a small low to the ground trailer which would have hand rails so you can get back to the car? Would having handrails around the car be too much of a modification. Can you ambulate with a walker?
We need a narrative and expanded version of the requirements.
I have a simple design which requires almost no mods to the car and is easy to use, but suspect it will fail unacceptably with one or more of the requirements.
You currently seem to be interested in winchng yourself up a ramp with a cable. I can't imagine how you could reach into the car to get the cable to be able to attach it. And the size of the winch would require a pulley system as it plus the length of the chair will not permit it to be pulled entirely off the ramps and into the car. And then what do you do with the ramps if you were able to get it in?
Let us know as this is a fascinating, challenging project.
Duncan |
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djkeev
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gpbruce lyons
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Expertise Wanted: Motorized wheelchair into Westy! |
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Hi Duncan!
I am so sorry to hear about your brother! I pray he is not in pain!
After six months of frustration trying to solve this problem, I went to where I could get the best thinking for a solution! I won't bore you with stories from 9 mobility stores and what they could not do for me and endless hours on the Internet. In short, by regulations, they don't work or sell parts for 30 year old vehicles. But they would be perfectly happy to sell me a $60-$80K minivan with no beds! I have two great loves, camping and eating particularly while camping!
Three years ago I got a diagnosis of IBM Inclusion Body Myositus, an extremely rare neurological auto immune disease. My body processes muscle mass like food, I have lost 55LBS of muscle mass in the last two years. It has also paralyzed my throat making eating very difficult, chokes frequent, and impossible to eat more than a quarter of a cheeseburger in an hour. Due to muscle weakness, every day is an adventure to discover something new I can no longer do. That started with loss of balance and has progressed to the point I can't work a toilet plunger due to instability, agility and strength. People who have IBM either choke to death #1, or die due to falls #2. There is no cure or treatment that works. To live, I have to adapt. I could expire anytime, but it won't be without a fight! Every meal and step is an adventure! I now spend 12 to 16 hours per day in my chair...
The discussion has gone a little off the rails and that is partly my fault. I decided to throw the problem at Samba with a blank sheet, no expectations, just get ideas and work with them. You noticed my list of requirements came very late in the game, I started at zero requirements so no ideas got left on the table. The List took shape as a result of our dialog. BTW, your comment about Mt. Washington was a turning point. Though I'd never seen it, cable ramps were familiar to me!
Once the wheelchair is inside, the camper gets loaded. Ever want cinnamon buns, cookies, pizza, lasagna while camping? Coleman Oven! The amount of extras I carry is the result of being one of the co founders of VW BusCamp at Burning Man 21 years ago. That was before Glamping was a word.
If you want to feed 60-100 people on a Saturday night, I need gear! I think showing my gear drove DanF out of the conversation and his perspective was fabricator, something very much needed depending where this project might go... Miss him!
In short, the project is to get the wheelchair there and back, it is outside the rest of the weekend. The chair is 24" X 36" and it takes more than half of the floor space when loaded. The chair is front wheel drive, no idea about weight distribution but I am guessing front heavy. The front steers (big wheels) by the motors biasing direction based on the joy stick. The rear wheels are swivel castors with a mind of their own...
I have spent my life in high tech with faster, better, cheaper and I am comfortable with simpler, cheaper, faster. But when it comes to design or the program, I was completely open minded in the interest of considering all ideas.
Thank you for enumerating my list! I'll add detail. I am perfectly comfortable with completely conflicting ideas while figuring the best path, though frankly that can drive other people nuts, character flaw. But I can make great trade offs!
The Wheelchair Westy has to be:
1. Safe, the only time I am safe is with my butt in the chair and the chair is on the ground and maybe in the camper kitchen. There is risk anytime the chair is off the ground by ramp, lift, hoist or platform. Plus, no cables around the neck, trip hazards, flying tackle, unexpected chair interactions with pull cable.
2. Simple, got to this after a long journey through what is possible! Design VS ease of use? Simple is a lot harder than it looks!
3. Easy to Use, I think I can push buttons for a while longer. Dropping a pin in a hole is easier for me than screwing a bolt or rigging pullies.
4. Transparent, disappears when not in use. All the component parts have a place to live that is not in the camping space. The ramp is under the van, the winch in the refer with the pin.
5. Space efficient. No Big moving parts, nothing living in the camper that takes space. If possible.
6. Off the Shelf. When the discussion turned to fabrication, I had to examine my wallet and allocate money. Which I was willing to do for the right solution. Then a lifetime of experience kicked in, marine winch.
7. Rugged, low maintenance. Pulling the chair is light duty for a 2000LB winch, and it would be done infrequently. Zero points of failure is called for where I camp! In Canada, fire roads lead to the best views!
8. All Terrain Flexible. Where the ramp meets the ground we have every condition, rocks, mud, snow, possibly hidden holes...
9. Minimal Camper Modifications. To use the Braun Under Vehicle Lift ($16KUSD) the gas tank would have to be relocated to synchro style in back. Using suspension compression devices to drop the floor level was too much.
So this ^^^^ list evolved in my head with every contribution to the discussion. Though it has been flying blind for people with your skills, Duncan, it got me to where I can see a path while not drowning in choices. Sorry, I sort of had to back into Cheap, Quick and Quality!
About Quick! I don't know how much time I have left, or what my capacities will be tomorrow, but getting this done sets me free! Between the wheelchair and covid (China Flu) I have felt like I was trapped, and I really don't like it!
I am still open minded to any solution! If the van needs to be modified for a better idea, so be it!
A bit more on how the chair will be used while camping. It will stay outside, software locked and chained to the rear tire (this chair cost $40K-$60KUSD originally, I paid almost $5K on eBay for one with 3 miles on it and had spent 5 years inside at Santa Barbara). I can, last I checked crawl into the van, then crawl up onto the bed then twist myself around to sit up.
My walking is dangerous stuff, 3 point of contact at all times, no tilts, leans or turns or down I go.
One of the design criterion that I started with "Be able to do it all myself!" has given way to doing it with help. Reality check!
The ramp/winch idea evolved from ski areas I have been to through out my life. But it was your words that triggered the idea! Thank You Duncan! The winch is 13" long and can pull all the wheels of the chair into the camper. I can foot wedge the winch out of the way for parking. BTW, the winch will be 18-20" off the ground, the seatbelt of the chair is 20" off the ground, under the seat pad.
I hope this additional information will get us back on course!
God Bless your Brother!
This is what I look like after feeding 80 people Burning Man Pork Tenderloin!
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gpbruce lyons
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Expertise Wanted: Motorized wheelchair into Westy! |
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Hi Kam! Three points from the outside, nothing but net! The snatch pulley frees up where to locate the winch, the most direct pull and frees up at least 13" of floor space needed to land the wheelchair! Well Done!
The winch could be between the seats and anchored to an eye-bolt for the seat-belt!
Good thinking! |
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DuncanS
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013
Posts: 4583
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Expertise Wanted: Motorized wheelchair into Westy! |
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Thank you so much for all the explanations. This makes things much easier for us. I did not mean to pry about the medical condition, but only wanted to know if this were something that was progressive with a short period where any help we could provide would be obsolete by the time it was installed or the prognosis was that it could help you for several years.
So let me cut immediately to my latest thoughts which I think could work, cost less than 4k and could be fabricated and debugged within 6 weeks.
Linear motors are strong and reliable. You have some in your chair which tilt the seat back and they are used in gritty industrial environments like iron foundries--I have had one--a foundry that is. They have capabilities that can easily withstand your load and cycle requirements. They are even used in salt marine environments where corrosion is an issue. In your car, however, I don't think we need to go to 316 stainless. Just powder coating and regular maintenance by any decent mechanic should ensure decades of failsafe use.
So my idea is: use a powered screw jack mounted to the B pillar outside the car. Its base plugs into a strengthened existing jack point. The strengthening is needed because the work it is designed to do is resist an upward force. We will need it to resist a downward thrust. The upper end would be bolted to a reinforced B pillar. The really rugged platform is welded to the bottom of the jack and is powered to swivel. The platform normally lives under the floor of the car and is swiveled out to be deployed. After rising to the level of the floor and discharging the chair, it can be stowed back under the car. It take up zero space inside and would be only an inch off the ground with a small segmented ramp at the loading edge. Segments are needed to accommodate irregular ground to make sure one wheel isn't encountering any lip to have to climb over. I envision it being painted the same color as the car to reduce the visual immpact. If not needed, someone could unbolt it and remove it from the car using its own power to support it during removal. Power would be from a single plug to onboard power coming from a separate deep cycle AGM battery mounted over the tranny. All controls would be through a remote about the size of a pack of cigarettes which could be secured on the chair.
Concerns. Water. While driving through rain storms, the motor and all electrics have to be securely protected. Every precaution with gaskets, O rings and so on would be done to help with this. Encapsulated sealed marine grade 12v motors would be used. In addition a simple heavy waterproof cap can be added when the weather is threatening for extra protection.
Weight. I'd like to estimate the weight and lash an equivalent to some planks and drive around over some rough roads and sharp curves at an excess speed to see it any issues develop that could require a suspension mod. I doubt it, but wouldn't want to skip this step.
Limit switches--They might not be needed, but would add safety, but also time and expense. if you feel that currently your fine motor skills could operate the swivel without having the platform How does the platform "find" the van floor height. Can you do that or do we need sensors there? Much would depend on vertical speed. I would shoot for a relatively slow rate for this, both for safety and so getting the right height would be easier. I imagine the whole thing weighing around 250 pounds. Nothing from the outside would be visible if it were uninstalled except for the two plugged bolt holes. Yes it would be a bit ungainly driving down the road, but when you drive around in the chair itself does it look like Ghia designed it?
A rating on the requirements.
1. Safety See no reason why we can't get an A+ or 98 points here. The other 2 points are never obtainable. Remember the Challenger?
2. Simplicity Not ramps but better than many alternatives. I'll give it a B here with 80 points as it is definitely simpler than an under car mount or some other concepts.
3. Easy to use. Without limit switches, A- or 90 points. Far easier than trying to hitch cables to the chair and making sure that when going back down a ramp, the cable tension is maintained for safety. And then, how do you stow the ramps?
4. Transparent. Inside A+ 100 points, Outside C- 70 points
5. Space. Inside A+ 100 points. Outside, won't be in the way for camping, but will project 6" from the side of the vehicle requiring paying attention while driving in tight spots.
6. Off the shelf This is difficult to assess. All the major components would be purchased from existing proven engineered components, but some such as the swivel mechanism will require custom design, engineering and fabrication. A C+ here??? You tell us as this is pretty subjective depending on whether you are an engineer or an english lit major.
7. Rugged. We would oversize all components giving you a solid A+ here, 98 points.
8. All Terrain Flexible. I see that with a segmented entry ramp able to accommodate a lumpy ground, you should be able to use it anywhere the chair can normally go.
9. Minimal Camper Modifications. Now you know what I envision, you can answer this yourself. For me, cutting off the entire top of a T3, adding a roof overhang, splitting the windshield into two safari type glass flats a la a 23 window split is minor. To others, drilling a hole for a radio antenna is a huge undertaking.
I'd love your reaction. Oh, and should you think it's too clunky when bolted on, we could always make a fiberglass shroud which could make it be smoother looking
Regards, Duncan. |
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