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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3054 Location: MD
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:14 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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If it's at or close to 35 degrees, it's not going to line up. It only lines up at 0 degrees and then you need to time it to 35 degrees. Since it runs, I would verify timing with a timing light and you should be good to go. _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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mikemtnbike Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015 Posts: 2797 Location: North Carolina
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3054 Location: MD
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:27 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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All the guides.. whatever. I ran around chasing my tail and doubting myself so much. The best option imo is an advanced adjustable timing light. Use the TDC mark and don't screw around with measuring other marks or whatever. Just set the timing for 35, rev to 3000rpm, and you're golden.
https://smile.amazon.com/INNOVA-5568-Pro-Timing-Li...mp;sr=8-11 _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:03 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Thanks Guys,
I'll take a look at the GW article and a timing light. Although I may just take it to my mechanic to have him do the final tune...including valve adjustments.
WRT valve adjustment. Should I bother doing this before I do the ring break in drive?
Seems the lifers are still clacking a bit...so adjustments seem ineffective until they are pumped up with oil.
?? |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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So....you guys were right. It’’s making too much noise.
Ran it for 20 minutes in the garage (stopped smoking at 7 minutes but never stopped clacking)
Drove it for 40 minutes to break in the rings.
Set the dynamic timing with a timing light.
Still clacking and newly leaking from the no 4 exhaust push rod tube. After initial investigation, the tube is ovalized in the vertical dimension and not seated straight. I suspect a bent push rod....we’ll see what a deeper inspection reveals tomorrow.
Notice how narrowed the no 4 exhaust tube (on the right) is?
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3054 Location: MD
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:29 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Is that a dent in the pushrod tube on the left? _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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felixbobcat Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2017 Posts: 173 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:29 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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One of my tubes leaked as well and it was the exhaust tube on number four too! My fault on putting the head on because it got hung up and got bent and I didn't know there was a problem until I started it up. I replaced all my tubes with these.
You can replace the tubes without taking the heads off but you will destroy the old ones removing them. You do have to remove the rocker assembly to pull the push rods. |
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mikemtnbike Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015 Posts: 2797 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:59 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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It is, IME, exponentially easier to get the push rods seated correctly when the engine is vertical in an engine stand. Using gravity as your friend always helps. _________________ 1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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felixbobcat wrote: |
One of my tubes leaked as well and it was the exhaust tube on number four too! My fault on putting the head on because it got hung up and got bent and I didn't know there was a problem until I started it up. I replaced all my tubes with these.
You can replace the tubes without taking the heads off but you will destroy the old ones removing them. You do have to remove the rocker assembly to pull the push rods. |
Felix
Thanks for the tip. I really wanted to go stock, but here we are. Can you share the source for those tubes.
mikemtnbike
I agree...and to prove you right...the passenger side rockers and push rods were installed in my stand...vertically. And the drivers side installed horizontally after the engine was in the van.
Questions:
Is it even POSSIBLE to install these correctly when it's in the van?
If installed with a slight misalignment of the push rod and lifter...what is the consequence? I've heard they "snap" into place by themselves...but now I'm doubting that claim. |
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Howesight Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008 Posts: 3274 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Yes, it is possible to install pushrods while the engine is in the van. It just requires a delicate feel. You back off the lash adjustment as far as possible, hold the pushrod with finger and thumb, and move the lifter end of the pushrod up, down, left and right as you screw in the lash adjuster, feeling for the pushrod tip seating in the lifter.
Most important for future builds on this whole pushrod issue is bench bleeding the lifters. Even then, if there is much time elapsing between bleeding and it is possible for lifters to bleed down and suck air.
Regarding consequences, if the pushrod is not seated in the socket in the lifter, then when the engine runs, the pushrod often works its way loose and then falls out of the socket on the rocker end and the pushrod can get bent and push against a rocker and dislodge the rocker. A loose pushrod can also damage the lifter by bearing against the wall of the lifter rather than the socket. _________________ '86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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T3 Pilot Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2011 Posts: 1507 Location: Deep South of the Great White North
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Also remember that the pushrod carries oil through its length from the lifter to the rocker arm and that depends on it being seated in the lifter socket. _________________ 1988 Vanagon
The most important part in every vehicle is the nut behind the wheel...... |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Howesite,
"You back off the lash adjustment as far as possible, hold the pushrod with finger and thumb, and move the lifter end of the pushrod up, down, left and right as you screw in the lash adjuster, feeling for the pushrod tip seating in the lifter. "
That's exactly how I installed my pushrods and adjusted the screws. But to be more sure, I started with the rockers off, so could gauge how deep the push rods fall into the tubes when correctly seated to a lifter.
So...once I assess the situation, I'll decide how to reinstall. |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4800 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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a bit late now except for the side you'll be taking the rocker arm off... a good thread on lifter bleeding.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
you're doing a great job at taking things in stride, or at least not typing them out. this stuff happens, a combination of failures of both material and process. edumacation degree advanced with both. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Thanks Dan...it's a journey I'll opine about later...at length.
But I cut my teeth designing and building formula race cars, fine art and design. When you are trying to do something you don't know how to do...the ratio of build-test-learn(failure) time to drive/success time is like 500:1 and it's often lonely work....westies are a similar challenge to me. And with you guys on my side it's a little less lonely. |
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3054 Location: MD
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:28 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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90weekender wrote: |
When you are trying to do something you don't know how to do...the ratio of build-test-learn(failure) time to drive/success time is like 500:1 |
_________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:28 pm Post subject: 2.1 MV Rebuild |
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Drained the break-in oil and removed the drivers side rockers and push rods.
#4 intake and exhaust push rods are bent.
#4 adjuster screws look fine. I expected them to be worse.
Replacing all parts with new is easy....but the real issue is...WHY did this happen?
Lead hypothesis: I let the engine down on my wooden dolley and the drivers side rocker tubes took the weight of the engine for some time. A mistake on my part and wisely noted by Dr. Mark Ward when he commented on the photos. I ignored his subtle but astute warning.
Secondary hypothesis: ?? Anyone ??
Exhibits:
Just noticed these adjuster screws are different
Notice the wear location is lower on the left (exhaust) rocker.
The left (exhaust) adjuster screw may be bent. I’ll check it this weekend.
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Howesight wrote: |
Most important for future builds on this whole pushrod issue is bench bleeding the lifters. Even then, if there is much time elapsing between bleeding and it is possible for lifters to bleed down and suck air. |
4 weeks time lapsed between bleeding my lifters and installing the push rods and rockers on the drivers side.
Revised hypothesis:
Air in the lifters make's it impossible to set the adjuster screws with any kind of load on the push rod to keep it correctly seated in the lifter. They simply drop out as you described. That's why mine failed as they did. 4/8 of my push rods are bent beyond repair. |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4800 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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i'm bothered by why they got bent... sure, they had crazy clearance, hammered around but what did they wedge against to bend? were the rods slipped out of place when you took the valve covers off?
could the cam timing have been off and the valves smacked the pistons? but you turned the engine over by hand many times once it was assembled in the stand, correct?
think you'll be pulling heads or just switching to spring push tubes for them? if you DON'T pull heads (and i probably wouldn't) might want to run a leak down test while the rocker ams are off to check for bent valves. remember to smack the top of each valve with a rubber mallet before testing. kinda fun to do it with the air pressure on too! _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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felixbobcat Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2017 Posts: 173 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Maybe the push rods weren’t properly seated in the lifters? Not likely but a hypothesis. Are all the bent ones on the same side of the engine? |
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