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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Further inspection:
Pulled #4 exhaust push rod tube and the lifter.
Lifter was full of oil...un-compressible, but damaged around the perimeter:
Push rod tube was cracked from the impact of the misaligned push rod:
I believe the lifters leaked and so I could set the adjuster screws with any sufficient or sustainable force to keep the push rods from falling out of the lifter seat.
I will re-assemble as follows:
Bleed lifters
Install adjustable push rod tubes
Install push rods
Install rockers
Adjust rocker screws so push rods are just seated for each cylinder at TDC
Screw adjusters in 1 full turn and lock in place. |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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DanHoug wrote: |
i'm bothered by why they got bent... sure, they had crazy clearance, hammered around but what did they wedge against to bend? were the rods slipped out of place when you took the valve covers off?
could the cam timing have been off and the valves smacked the pistons? but you turned the engine over by hand many times once it was assembled in the stand, correct?
think you'll be pulling heads or just switching to spring push tubes for them? if you DON'T pull heads (and i probably wouldn't) might want to run a leak down test while the rocker ams are off to check for bent valves. remember to smack the top of each valve with a rubber mallet before testing. kinda fun to do it with the air pressure on too! |
All the rods were fully seated in the adjuster screws when I opened it up.
Yes I did. It turned really smoothly. Confirmed cam timing.
I don't know how to do a leak down test is. I drove the van on side roads like this and it had ok power when I was breaking in the rings. |
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jberger Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 2476
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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90weekender wrote: |
Howesight wrote: |
Most important for future builds on this whole pushrod issue is bench bleeding the lifters. Even then, if there is much time elapsing between bleeding and it is possible for lifters to bleed down and suck air. |
4 weeks time lapsed between bleeding my lifters and installing the push rods and rockers on the drivers side.
Revised hypothesis:
Air in the lifters make's it impossible to set the adjuster screws with any kind of load on the push rod to keep it correctly seated in the lifter. They simply drop out as you described. That's why mine failed as they did. 4/8 of my push rods are bent beyond repair. |
Properly seated pushrods will not fall out on their own accord.. even without preload. My guess is that the rods were not set correctly upon startup and they bent. You can feel air in the lifters.. as well as oil. Having built dozens of similar engines.. its a stressful yet important part of assembly. Pretty sure I have a long dated post in the bay forum on my first engine build... One, brand new Febi (or equivalent lifter) just would not pump up. I opined that you could feel that during bench bleeding.. if the assembly pressed together too easily.. then you were out of luck. To be fair.. that hasn't happened again in 20 years. Still, the situmajason made me pay more attention to ancillary systems.
J |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4777 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:12 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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here's a decent article on leak down testing.. testers run anywhere from $35 to around $200 for a made-in-USA one.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/cylinder-leakdown-tester/
couple additional points from the article. there is a very small bleed orifice between the two gauges. there is no standard for the diameter of this orifice so each gauge can measure differently from different manufacturers. so absolute numbers aren't that important but you will see trends and they'll help pinpoint engine compression issues without disassembly.
it's a handy tool when there's a question of burned/bent valves, worn rings, even gasket issues.
glad to hear the engine was rotated thru before starting.. you likely haven't bent valves and probably don't need to leak down test but it's a good baseline on an engine build as the miles pile up. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:46 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Hey Dan,
Thanks for the article and explanation. Looks very useful...hopefully I'll never need to do it. We'll see...! |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:50 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Jberger,
"Properly seated pushrods will not fall out on their own accord.. even without preload."
That definitely reduces the variables of what might have gone wrong.
"My guess is that the rods were not set correctly upon startup and they bent."
If you have a method that is reliable...without removing the engine....please share it.
I'll bet the other Noobs like me would greatly appreciate it too. |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4777 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:03 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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looking at the photos again... the chip on the inside lip of the lifter, indicating side pressure from the rod, along with the cracked tube tells me this was likely pressure damage from lifting or setting it down on the tubes.
i don't see a path where a rod can exert that kind of pressure at that angle to tear stainless steel without an external push. with the other tubes, since there is a large amount of flexibility in the silicone seals, a damage event could be hid by the tube and seal springing back after it had gone far enough to bend the pushrod.
it would also explain why you had such a racket on immediate startup after being meticulous in setting the valve clearance baseline. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Saturday I replaced the bent pushrods, damaged lifters, installed all new adjustable push rod tubes and turned it over with fuel and spark disconnected.
Here are the drivers side new rockers and pushrods from MansiSpeed. I found that every pushrod that bent, also had a bent adjuster screw. They had to be cut off the rocker arm and replaced with new ones.
After adjusting the rocker screws, I took a picture like this for every push rod with my iPhone and a pen light to ensure the rods were seated in the lifters. They all look like this.
The JayCee adjustable push rod tubes below required a lot of force to compress into place. You have to compress them once to get them onto the back of the head, then a couple more times to get them to the hole. I had to use a flat nylon “crow bar” made for removing auto upholstered door panels, to get it onto the black of the head. Then when in place the seals are typically not seated correctly and need a 13mm long socket applied from the outside a couple times while you ensure the seal gets seated correctly. Once installed they look great and the MansiSpeed 1.35 ratio rocker push rods do not interfered. Which I was concerned about.
Here’s my wife cranking the engine to listen for interference…or carnage of any kind: no fuel or spark hooked up.
Link
Installed the push rod tube shields so we can get out and drive it.
Last edited by 90weekender on Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:42 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Sunday we hooked up the spark and fuel to start it up. I edited that out the first minute because it was kind of a lumpy idle. This clip is after it settled into a fairly smooth idle. You can still hear a couple dry lifters.
Link
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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So mechanically the engine is running as new, but:
the fuel injection system is running very rich (hot and cold)
very little low end torque
Very low power that gets worse over time as the plugs get wetter.
I've pulled all 4 spark plugs and all 4 looked like this:
Hall sender has cracked wires:
Temp sender has cracked wires:
Plan B is to purchase this EPROM emulator and android app to diagnose electrical issues. And it has some other features that could be nice to have:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=754465&highlight=digifant |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9923 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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If you follow those 3 hall wires back away from the distributor you should soon find a 4th wire in the same bundle, a brown one.
That 4th wire needs a ring terminal end and then it gets screwed down to ENGINE metal.
Make sure that connection is clean and tight.
Depending on the version of your Digifant harness that 4th wire may be brown with a strip instead of plain brown.
Mark |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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crazyvwvanman
Thanks for the tip Mark. My 4th wire is brown and well secured to the drivers side head.
I'm currently searching for wire harness sections from vendors. Brickwreks in the UK has tomes of parts, but no complete harness sections available. |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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T3 Pilot Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2011 Posts: 1507 Location: Deep South of the Great White North
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T3 Pilot Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2011 Posts: 1507 Location: Deep South of the Great White North
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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See, I go to the fridge while replying and you are already halfway there…
Items like the Hall sender connector pigtail are a good quick way to get the job done. Its been a while, but i can recall picking up pigtails for fuel injectors at a VW dealership for a normal price. Take your T2 sensor with you and hand it to the parts guy. _________________ 1988 Vanagon
The most important part in every vehicle is the nut behind the wheel...... |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Does anyone know whats going on with this temp sensor wiring? Looks non-stock
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markswagen Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2018 Posts: 1030 Location: san diego
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Thats the GW, thingamajigger for correcting the coolant temp needle, l like to fit then inside the black box, near the thermostat housing
90weekender wrote: |
Does anyone know whats going on with this temp sensor wiring? Looks non-stock
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_________________ markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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markswagen
Any idea why this kluge is needed? I'd get rid of it if I can.
Happy 4th! |
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felixbobcat Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2017 Posts: 173 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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The picture of your plug looks like it is running lean. Check for vacuum leaks. |
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felixbobcat Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2017 Posts: 173 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Also, how did you break in the motor? I used break in oil, after first start ran it for five minutes at 2000 RPM. Let it cool then ran it for twenty minutes at 2000 RPM. I then took it out on the road and did five sessions each of alternately driving at 30 and 50 MPH. That is the break in procedure I got from Rocky Jennings.
Check your compression also. I’m wondering if your rings have not set. |
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