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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Yup...that's a concern Mark.
That's why I had my machinist check the rods after putting the bolts in. He showed me over the counter with his bore gauge that the big ends were all within spec for roundness. He's been really supportive on each step.
I have some cheapo bore gauges from HF, but I wanted a Pro to check such a critical step. As I learn more about these engine, I'm seeing how critical the big ends of the rods are.
If i can figure out how to upload video, I'll share my rod and crank shaft build up. |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17012 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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So no change? That would be helpful to others swapping fasteners. Thank you for clarifying. _________________ ☮️ |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Questions:
Anyone use "Gascacinch" to seal the case halves vs. the Victor Rienze stuff? Pros-Cons?
Torque spec for the case nuts looks like 25 foot pounds for an aircooled, but what is the correct torque for a Water Boxer 2.1? Not seeing it in Bentley nor in videos of engine rebuilds.
Thanks
I'd like to close this case today..
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 2982 Location: MD
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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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I bought Gasgacinch after seeing it mentioned here. It's basically a rubber cement. It's not terrible on removal and it certainly helps. _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17012 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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That’s odd there is no spec for the main case nuts. I can look around tomorrow. Back in the air cooled days we used Permatex aviation gasket sealer. Fast forward I used a Loctite product called gasket eliminator. Not sure of the number, but it’s anaerobic. Seals without air. The case halves are machined surfaces and require very little sealer. Be careful not to over goop it, especially around the rear seal and cam plug. There is a small galley for oil to return from the crank seal area. _________________ ☮️ |
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AtlasShrugged Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008 Posts: 1605 Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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4Gears4Tires wrote: |
I bought Gasgacinch after seeing it mentioned here. It's basically a rubber cement. It's not terrible on removal and it certainly helps. |
For the engine cases I would use Loctite 518 Red. It is an anaerobic gasketing material. I have used it with Porsche 911 engines and VWs too. No leaks with a good seal that lasts for decades.
Available from most FLAPS or online.
_________________ 'Let's Go Brandon' |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:38 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Thanks guys,
I have fresh tubes of Loctite 518, Victor Rienze, and various gasket makers. I imagine they are all feasible alternatives, but these look very time sensitive.
Meaning...I have to quickly assemble the case halves within minutes after applying the sealant. Also what if I get it wrong? Which is highly likely for a Noob. Then I will have to open it up and scrape off the sealant...and apply a new bead...then race to assemble. Stressful.
The Gascacinch looks like it is NOT sensitive to time. It dries in a few minutes but never looses it's flexibility....ever.
So for a Noob like me it looks very forgiving. I can take as long as I need to apply it and assemble the case. If I make a mistake...it peels and rolls off totally cleanly like any rubber cement.
Unless anyone can tell me something bad about it...I'm going to try Gascacinch.
I'll look out for the galley holes near the front seal Mark.
R |
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dabaron Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2018 Posts: 2558 Location: Philly, mang
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:41 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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i just sealed up my heads with the Reinzosil. if it takes you more than 10 minutes to put the case halves or the heads on, you are doing something wrong. test fit everything first. _________________ 1991 Vanagon GL Camper
i had no idea i wanted to be a mechanic
"burnin oil and cookin coils" -- Destructo
BiWerks Design, LLC |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Hey dabaron!
Yes indeed, I assembled and torqued the case together 3 or 4 times to test fit everything...first the main bearings....then just the cam a few times...then cam + crank a few times with new bearings.
With no previous WBX engine build experience...I suspect I will always be "doing something wrong". So I have to do everything a few times until it's right.
Like you, I will use the Victor Rienze stuff on the head gaskets.
Another reason I'm going with Gascacinch is that it looks exactly like the factory sealant I found when disassembling this engine. It was almost transparent and slightly yellow. So I don't believe the factory used the victor rienze stuff. My case never leaked a drop of oil in 30 years.
Many of the case nuts on the other hand have a brown/black sealant on them. It's very hard and chips off if you take a dental tool to it. I will use the VR stuff on them as I assemble.
R
Last edited by 90weekender on Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:11 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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So I just mated the case halves today with Gascacinch and I'm wondering if there is a way to know if I've got a leak...or if I've clogged an oil galley with the Gascacinch?
Is there a case sealing test I can do before building up the whole shebang? Otherwise I wont know until it's fully installed in the van.
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Case stud bolt torque.
I called my local mentor engine builder and he says the 6 case stud nuts torque to 28-30 ft. lbs. |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17012 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Look where the flywheel seal seats. There should be a small hole at the bottom. Blow compressed air in it to be sure it is clear. There’s not really any other place that a little extra goo will hurt. That’s why I stated a “film”. It’s machined surface and even with no sealer would barely drip.
For others, the Loctite has plenty of working time. It’s not till the case is seated that the clock starts to tick. It’s the sealer “hidden” from air that cures. _________________ ☮️ |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Thanks Mark
I'll check and blow some air in it as mentioned.
So I checked my crank end float or end play:
Measured .00275 in.
Bentley says new is .003
Is mine too tight? |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17012 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Do the math. What’s the next thinner shim you could use and what would it increase the endplay to? Your likely as close as you can get. Doesn’t the 2.1 get a thrust bearing against the case? It’s not uncommon to take some 320 on a piece of glass and remove a little material. _________________ ☮️ |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Thanks Mark....I did the sanding trick with some 400. I'll recheck end float tomorrow.
Here's today's work:
Case nut sealing
Sealed bung holes on the flywheel end of case:
3 O-ring high volume oil pump install: MansiSpeed supplies a paper gasket not shown. It sits between the case and the pump. I sealed it with Gascacinch.
There is an o-ring not show that seals the cover to the gears.
Oil pressure relief valve:
A good days work:
I'm a little nervous the oil pump studs will interfere with the water cross over pipe under the front pulley. I'll check that next time.
Last edited by 90weekender on Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17012 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:57 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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What did you do about sealing the oil pump cover? I understand there are some gasket kits out there with too thick a gasket. You want that cover as close to the pump gears as you can get it. _________________ ☮️ |
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T3 Pilot Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2011 Posts: 1507 Location: Deep South of the Great White North
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:06 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Mornin’
The studs on the oil pump are not only going to interfere with the coolant pipe, but the studs/cover interferes with the engine mount bracket as well. _________________ 1988 Vanagon
The most important part in every vehicle is the nut behind the wheel...... |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:58 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Mark...I've edited and added oil pump install images above.
T3 Pilot...thanks for the warning. Have you had this problem and solved it yourself? |
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T3 Pilot Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2011 Posts: 1507 Location: Deep South of the Great White North
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:48 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Oh yeah, couple of times. The crossover pipe needs to be massaged with a ball peen hammer and the clearance from pump cover to the engine mount can be solved by installing 4 mm thick washers between bracket and motor at the three mount points.
By the way, the torque value on the M10 case nuts is 45 NM and the M8 nuts are 20 NM
Pro tip on shaping the pipe with the hammer, fill the pipe with sand while you are re-shaping it. You could also switch from studs to bolts to improve clearance. Don’t hit the pipe directly, place the ball on the pipe and strike it with another hammer. I put the pipe in a wooden base to hold it steady while striking it. You can cobble something together on the bench. _________________ 1988 Vanagon
The most important part in every vehicle is the nut behind the wheel...... |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:49 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Thanks for the "Pro Tips" T3 Pilot!
If 1 Ft lb = .73756 NM...Then:
45NM = 33.1902 Ft lbs (M10 case nuts)
20NM = 14.75 Ft lbs. (M8 case nuts)
I had a hunch the 4mm thick washer trick would help clear the engine carrier. And massaging water pipes is not my thing...but if that's what it takes...I'll have to try.
Last edited by 90weekender on Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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