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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17153 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:08 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Couple reasons to use studs. One, it makes aligning it way easier. Also, if a stud snaps some day, it will snap below the threads and you'll have something to grab to remove it. A bolt that seizes, will likely snap flush with the case, and then you'll wish you had used a stud. _________________ ☮️ |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Thanks Mark,
I did not consider that when putting bolts on the water pump.
What about metalurgy:
In replacing studs with bolts in my engine case are there issues with material of bolts reacting with the case?
OEM look of zinc yellow is nice, but also recognize that the zinc will evaporate eventually and rust.
I've heard SS can seize inside the case and be very tuff to remove later.
Should I put ant-sieze or locktite on the bolts?
Any experiences to share? |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:11 am Post subject: 2.1 MV rebuild: Updated water and oil pump |
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I've taken Marks advice and reinstalled the water pump studs.
And to improve clearance on the high volume oil pump I've used bolts and copper washers to hold the pump cover on.
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:19 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Case nut sealing: Rethinking
A few posts back you can see I used the Victor Rienz sealant and blue locktite on these case nuts, but I believe the factory used only the yellow pasty stuff that comes with the engine gasket sets.
Should I reseal it with the yellow stuff or leave the Victor Rienz sealant in there?
Here's my original pic for referene:
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4790 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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i think you want something plastic and non-hardening on head nuts... you said case nuts but are holding a head nut. i don't like the yellow goo because i've found it to be very dry and flakey after less than a year. much less.
something like Curil T2 fits the bill nicely as would Hylomar. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Thanks Dan,
My thumb is covering how long the nut is...maybe 40mm long?...but I promise it's a 15mm case nut. It is one of 4 that go inside the case to secure main bearing saddles.
If "plastic and non-hardening" is better than the yellow goo, then this Victor Rienz stuff should be suitable.
Detials here on the Victor Reinz site: https://datenblatt.reinz.de/web1/en/produkte/Dichtmassen/reinzosil/td_reinzosil_e.pdf?bct=21
R
Last edited by 90weekender on Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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How to seal the steel cylinders to the case?
Loctite 518 (pictured below)
Silicone RTV (recommended by my machinist with 50 years building vw boxers)
Grease (as per TencentLife 2.1 engine build comments)
Silicone Grease (Just curious if this is better for Noobs like me, as it never dries...give me infinite time to eff up and start over when installing the pistons)
Loctite 518 being used to seal up the pistons to case as seen on Bens Place web site:
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4790 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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remember... like dissolves like. you want to NOT dissolve the o-ring so petroleum grease on a silicone seal, and silicone grease on a non-silicone seal.
what i DON'T know is what the base o-ring is made of... i suspect nitrile instead of silicone so i would use a silicone like SilGlyde. but this is all immersed in oil so it really doesn't matter too much as it will be washed away.... you essentially are trying to get the o-ring to slip a bit and slide into position as the cylinder is clamped down. once that is done, it is the tension of the o-ring material that does the sealing. i'm not a fan of RTV stuff inside an engine but that's me and there's builders with far more emperical history that like it. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Dan
Here is the silicone I'm considering:
I'm not sure what the "rubber" piston o-rings are made of...can anyone out there tell us? |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Last edited by 90weekender on Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4790 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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90weekender wrote: |
Dan
Here is the silicone I'm considering:
I'm not sure what the "rubber" piston o-rings are made of...can anyone out there tell us? |
Jet-Lube makes great stuff! i have a raft of Jet-Lube antisieze products. i'm 99% sure the base o-ring is nitrile (Buna-N) and silicone lube would be appropriate. the top green o-ring i dunno but it could be left out anyway without harm so who cares what is used. as i said before, you want the o-ring to slip on installation and the oil wash will take away residuals of what lube you used. don't worry, be happy. the main thing is to not get them pinched which happens when they are dry.
a very obscure reference... in assembling copper RF transmission hardline for a 100kW FM station, the flanges use silicone seals. here you MUST use a petroleum lube, vaseline is great, as there is no oil wash, just years of high voltage and thermal expansions. the correct lube MUST be used.
like dissolves like. use the opposite. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Thanks again Dan,
I'll use the JetLube on the fat o-ring. I'm surprised how unimportant he green o-ring is.
FWIW, the only other engine I've rebuilt myself is a mazda 13b wankle. (Perhaps the simplest ICE engine rebuild EVER.) If I recall correctly the factory spec assembly lube is Vaseline! |
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AtlasShrugged Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008 Posts: 1605 Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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I would not dismiss the green top cylinder "O" rings as unimportant. I've seen engines that had those "O" ring nicked during reassembly and the top cylinder metal seal failed some time later.
Vaseline works great for both the bottom and top "O" rings _________________ 'Let's Go Brandon' |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Thanks Atlas!
Unfortunately my sealed case is leaking. Good news is...I found it before installing the pistons.
Not so good news...I'm not certain why it leaked. My best guess is that I sealed with the gascacinch...then turned the case 90 (meaning right side up) and so assembly oil dripped down into the center seam.
But what do I know? Upon disassembly today, it had no obvious dirt or surface issues that would allow a leak.
Here's a pic: You can just see the shiny wet oil seeping out from the center seem
Last edited by 90weekender on Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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AtlasShrugged Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008 Posts: 1605 Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:33 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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For the engine cases I would use Loctite 518 Red. It is an anaerobic gasketing material. I have used it with Porsche 911 engines and VWs too. No leaks with a good seal that lasts for decades.
Available from most FLAPS or online.
You will need to remove all the old sealant, clean the case with lacquer cleaner and use a ANAEROBIC sealer. _________________ 'Let's Go Brandon' |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17153 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:40 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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AtlasShrugged wrote: |
For the engine cases I would use Loctite 518 Red. It is an anaerobic gasketing material. I have used it with Porsche 911 engines and VWs too. No leaks with a good seal that lasts for decades.
Available from most FLAPS or online.
You will need to remove all the old sealant, clean the case with lacquer cleaner and use a ANAEROBIC sealer. |
This. _________________ ☮️ |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4790 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:05 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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for those that have done numeous cases... is Loctite 518 preferred over say Dirko, Curil T, Curil K2 or Hylomar? it is appearing so! _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17153 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:43 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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Until anaerobic sealers were available, we used Permatex aviation sealer. It was non hardening but did seal the case halves. I’ve had problems with hylomar period. I don’t think they sell enough of it anymore, and it sits on the shelves too long. _________________ ☮️ |
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90weekender Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015 Posts: 183
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:46 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 MV rebuild |
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OK....message is clear:
Clean off old sealant...can I use acetone?
Use Loctite 518: I have a tube and have read the directions...but you guys always seem to spring some critical tribal knowledge on me that is NOT in the directions.
Can you tell me how YOU use Loctite 518 to seal the cases? (If any different from the directions)
Thanks,
R |
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