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Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle
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bcrazy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:48 pm    Post subject: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle Reply with quote

Is there anything that can to the stock drum brakes to improve stopping power? Not talking about upgrading to discs or porsche 356 drums.

Anything that can be done while still keeping the stock drums?
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mukluk
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:36 am    Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle Reply with quote

Keep them adjusted and your tires inflated properly. Carry less weight in the car. Drive slower. Go to the gym.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:30 am    Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle Reply with quote

Marco de Waal has adapted front bus brake shoes and rear bus brakes to his vintage speed beelte. You can check it at instagram as Marcosupplies, I think. He's looking to adapt the complete front bus brake system (except the drums)

Simple mods to stock brakes are superbeetle front brake cylinder, post 68 rear brake system (wider shoes) with 19mm brake cylinder or split bus specific 21mm one for beetle brake conversion (straight axle or irs) and a bigger master cylinder, like a bay 22mm one
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Mattatat
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle Reply with quote

One of the best things i did was switch to the braided stainless hoses. Pedal feel is solid without flex from the rubber ones.
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frenchroast
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle Reply with quote

bcrazy wrote:
Anything that can be done while still keeping the stock drums?

The biggest factor with drums is to have the linings arced to match the radius of the drum. You can do it yourself (dusty) or have a shop do it. Each set of linings has to be arced to match its drum (don’t mix them up). Also make sure the brake light switches are in good shape and use the good European made ones; they can be a weak spot. Overall, just make sure the mc, wheel cylinders and lines are in good shape. Some people recommend stainless sheathed lines but I don’t think they make a difference for a street car.

If you’re using the really old NOS non-metallic linings, you can drill holes through the shoe to get rid of the gases that build up. Find a picture of drilled drums to get an idea of the pattern. I wouldn’t drill the drums unless you have the tooling to chamfer the holes. Better to just use metallic shoes; drilling and venting drums and rotors is just for looks anymore. Metallic doesn’t have the initial bite like the old material but doesn’t fade as much.
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Erik G
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle Reply with quote

along with arcing, they do sell semi metallic linings, aircooled.net has them called super stoppers https://vwparts.aircooled.net/SearchResults.asp?Search=super+stopper&x=0&y=0

now for me, I did one super stopper type and one regular shoe in each drum, the leading shoe being the super stopper but it shouldnt matter. old trick someone taught me a long time ago. I used to get them at Kymco, glad ACNET has them
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bcrazy
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle Reply with quote

Erik G wrote:
along with arcing, they do sell semi metallic linings, aircooled.net has them called super stoppers https://vwparts.aircooled.net/SearchResults.asp?Search=super+stopper&x=0&y=0

now for me, I did one super stopper type and one regular shoe in each drum, the leading shoe being the super stopper but it shouldnt matter. old trick someone taught me a long time ago. I used to get them at Kymco, glad ACNET has them


Ok, but why not both shoes "super stopper" ?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle Reply with quote

The Type III rear brakes are larger and keep the 5 lug bolt pattern. You could use the rear brakes off a 4 lug Bug then use 5 lug VW Thing brake drums. Either may require additional parts swapping to work, and would make both sides 1/2 wider.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle Reply with quote

I have the larger super beetle front wheel cylinders on the front of my oval with 58-64 brakes. I'm happy with the performance, it can lock up my 165's without a great deal of effort. Aircooled.net also sells larger rear wheel cylinders. iirc correctly I have the stock rear cylinders and a 19mm master. The pedal is slightly on the mushy side, but going up to the larger 21mm master would probably make it too stiff unless I went with the larger aircooled.net rear wheel cylinders too.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle Reply with quote

bcrazy wrote:
Erik G wrote:
old trick someone taught me a long time ago.


Ok, but why not both shoes "super stopper" ?


That old trick (using brake linings of different compositions in the same drum) can be effective for vehicles equipped with "self-energizing" drum brakes. These brakes may also use different lining sizes for the 2 shoes in each drum, and are frequently "self-adjusting" by design.

Our air-cooled VWs do not have that type of brake design, so the advantage of using two different lining compositions at each wheel is pretty much nil. Idea
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle Reply with quote

On my car I have the 58 - 64 brakes front and rear. I have 22 mm wheel cylinders up front and 23.8mm super beetle wheel cylinders in the rear. Semi-metallic shoes all around and a 17mm single circuit master cylinder. The brakes are really pretty good, I am happy with the performance. This is the best combination I have found so far.

Shoes that match the arc of the drums is key, the first set of front semi-metallic shoes I got did not match well at all. For the price it was not worth the hassle of trying to sand them to match better.
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Albertoprop17
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle Reply with quote

j-dub wrote:
On my car I have the 58 - 64 brakes front and rear. I have 22 mm wheel cylinders up front and 23.8mm super beetle wheel cylinders in the rear. Semi-metallic shoes all around and a 17mm single circuit master cylinder. The brakes are really pretty good, I am happy with the performance. This is the best combination I have found so far.

Shoes that match the arc of the drums is key, the first set of front semi-metallic shoes I got did not match well at all. For the price it was not worth the hassle of trying to sand them to match better.


How is your brake pedal feel? Maybe it will work better with a 19mm or 21mm master

And where did you purchase the 22mm rear brake cylinders?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle Reply with quote

The brake pedal feels good, very easy to modulate. Not like an on/off switch.

If I go to a larger master cylinder I would get a pedal that was like an on/off switch and I would also get less pressure at the brake shoe for the same pressure on the pedal. The bigger master cylinder would need less pedal stroke though.

I forgot to mention in the other post, I have had better luck with Varga branded parts over Centric branded parts.
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Erik G
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle Reply with quote

57BLITZ wrote:
bcrazy wrote:
Erik G wrote:
old trick someone taught me a long time ago.


Ok, but why not both shoes "super stopper" ?


That old trick (using brake linings of different compositions in the same drum) can be effective for vehicles equipped with "self-energizing" drum brakes. These brakes may also use different lining sizes for the 2 shoes in each drum, and are frequently "self-adjusting" by design.

Our air-cooled VWs do not have that type of brake design, so the advantage of using two different lining compositions at each wheel is pretty much nil. Idea


the semi metallics both eat the drums and don't stop as well cold, maybe wet too. One of each gets you stopping better and not eating your drums as much...
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