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ryohey
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 560
Location: Plains, PA
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 Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 6:12 am Post subject: Cam selection? |
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I going to adventure into my first engine build. I am building a 1776 and been researching a lot of things. Head is spinning with information overloaded. Anyway, dual port heads and dual 34 epc carbs. I知 looking at a Elgin 7208 Cam on the classifieds here. It has 332 lift , 250 [email protected] and 288 seat duration. Is this too much cam? I have good dual port heads I知 going to rebuild. What should go into that ie (HD Springs, Bigger valves etc) I知 still researching and learning just want to put together a good strong engine. Thanks for any help and suggestions.
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APPLEGREENVW
Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2003
Posts: 2388
Location: Seekonk,Massachusetts USA
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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Buying a off the norm cam for a VW engine is a craps shoots. The only way to know if it's good is to put a dial indicator against it and plot it out. If you don't have the tools or ability to do that you are usually better off running a well known popular VW cam. Also [email protected]" is more than you want with your carb choice. With Weber 40idf's a cam with 250 would be ok. How much are they asking for the cam and is it a reground or a billet? With only .332 lift it probably will need high ratio rockers to get the most out of it.
Dan |
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vwinnovator
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 1555
Location: Still doing it in the back of your VW
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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| ryohey wrote: |
| I going to adventure into my first engine build. I am building a 1776 and been researching a lot of things. Head is spinning with information overloaded. Anyway, dual port heads and dual 34 epc carbs. I知 looking at a Elgin 7208 Cam on the classifieds here. It has 332 lift , 250 [email protected] and 288 seat duration. Is this too much cam? I have good dual port heads I知 going to rebuild. What should go into that ie (HD Springs, Bigger valves etc) I知 still researching and learning just want to put together a good strong engine. Thanks for any help and suggestions. |
bigger valves require bigger valve seats...
Look into a set of panchito heads from CB |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 8:09 am Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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| I agree get the pan opf cheetos, and a set of empi hpmx 40's and while your at it add a stroker crank from cb too. they also have new rods.and the pistons too.along with the gasket set they have it all.and no worrys about any quality and they can give you the right cam too.go for the 1.35 rockers they have there awesome and your heads will last longer. |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| I agree get the pan opf cheetos, and a set of empi hpmx 40's and while your at it add a stroker crank from cb too. they also have new rods.and the pistons too.along with the gasket set they have it all.and no worrys about any quality and they can give you the right cam too.go for the 1.35 rockers they have there awesome and your heads will last longer. |
Like to spend others $$. OP giving us your budget for this helps. Dan |
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3293
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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If you are stuck with the 34mm carbs, than stick with stock size valves, and a mild cam.
Clean up the valve bowls, and get a really good valve job done. I would keep the duration around 240 @ .050". The CB2239, CB2241, web 119, FK7, and FK41 would all be good choices. The split duration web 218/119 might be ideal since your carbs will be the bottleneck of the engine, and the split duration will make the intake pull a little harder. Depending on how good the heads are, you won't need much more than .460" lift at the valve. Good quality single springs will also be enough with most of the cams I listed.
The more duration you add, the worse the idle will get. You are already going to have a rough idle with the dual single barrels.
Keep a smaller 1 3/8" header on it as well. 8.5-9.0cr and a tight deck will make it all work good together.
Brian
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
If you are stuck with the 34mm carbs, than stick with stock size valves, and a mild cam.
Clean up the valve bowls, and get a really good valve job done. I would keep the duration around 240 @ .050". The CB2239, CB2241, web 119, FK7, and FK41 would all be good choices. The split duration web 218/119 might be ideal since your carbs will be the bottleneck of the engine, and the split duration will make the intake pull a little harder. Depending on how good the heads are, you won't need much more than .460" lift at the valve. Good quality single springs will also be enough with most of the cams I listed.
The more duration you add, the worse the idle will get. You are already going to have a rough idle with the dual single barrels.
Keep a smaller 1 3/8" header on it as well. 8.5-9.0cr and a tight deck will make it all work good together.
Brian |
Thank you Brian. I don't understand why people think the panchito head is some magical, works on any combo, cylinder head. It isn't and never will be. Just like my 050 Rassers. They work amazing when the rest of the combo supports it. For single barrel dual carbs, my 040 Super Street or 041's are the best or Tims Super Streets.....
As for the cam, I've found the W100 to work perfect with those carbs and idle like a dream. Anything bigger and it will be a PITA to tune. The web 119 would probably work well too but I haven't tried that combo personally.
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Cylinder Head Reference Sheet |
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ryohey
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 560
Location: Plains, PA
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2020 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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Thanks Guys. I was told that cam is like a cheater cam and just wanted to see what you thought. Still in the research phase and looking at a lot of things. The Build is going to be over time. Brain, thanks for the advise.
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2020 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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| ryohey wrote: |
| I going to adventure into my first engine build. I am building a 1776 and been researching a lot of things. Head is spinning with information overloaded. Anyway, dual port heads and dual 34 epc carbs. I知 looking at a Elgin 7208 Cam on the classifieds here. It has 332 lift , 250 [email protected] and 288 seat duration. Is this too much cam? I have good dual port heads I知 going to rebuild. What should go into that ie (HD Springs, Bigger valves etc) I知 still researching and learning just want to put together a good strong engine. Thanks for any help and suggestions. |
It has significantly more duration than the cheater cam we generally refer to, but low lift. It - could - actually wotk decent even with dual sgl barrel carbs. Off hand it would not be my first choice either, but if Dimitri says it works Iｴm pretty sure it will. |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
Buying a off the norm cam for a VW engine is a craps shoots. The only way to know if it's good is to put a dial indicator against it and plot it out. If you don't have the tools or ability to do that you are usually better off running a well known popular VW cam. Also [email protected]" is more than you want with your carb choice. With Weber 40idf's a cam with 250 would be ok. How much are they asking for the cam and is it a reground or a billet? With only .332 lift it probably will need high ratio rockers to get the most out of it.
Dan |
Well I bought the Samba classifieds Elgin cam this thread was started about and yesterday I put my dial indicator against it. I recently bought a 61 bug now that I finally sold my 1957 356A. I needed a project to replace the Porsche and a mule to test my current and upcoming engine parts. The 61 has a 40hp in it and I asked myself "what the hell am I going to do with this engine"? I am building a 2234 beast for the car but I would like to have a spare engine. The 40hp was a sad excuse for a recent engine rebuild and needed to be gone threw. Ran but was noisy and gutless. I will spare you form the hack job this engine had done to it.
I am gathering parts to turn it into a 1557cc 40hp/1600 based engine. It will have the 40hp bottom end with a 88mm forged blue box cima/dp head top end. Need a cam, the samba ad caught my eye and $55 shipped the cam is mine. I also picked up five crusty 40dcnf's for $150, two were junk and three are usable. THIS IS A BUDGET MOTOR so I don't want to hear about this or that to make it faster, I have that with the 2234.
Anyway enough with the back story. This is a very nice cam. Elgin cams have been around a long time and are very popular in the 4 cyl Porsche crowd. Lash ramps are well designed, 28* on the opening side and 32* on the closing. Cam came out 250 @.050" and I set the timing at 3* advanced, inop-20 incl-50 exop-56 excl-14. The lift is .330" I will run a set of CB 1.4 rockers on it and my street beehives. Being 40hp width I do need a 40hp header, anybody have one? They have become scarce.
The cam is in the web 86a, engle V-26, Norris 336s group. Being a webcam dealer why did I not use the 86a? This cost me less than my webcam dealer cost price, Remember this is a budget build.
Dan
Last edited by Dan Ruddock on Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:54 am; edited 2 times in total |
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kangaboy
Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2010
Posts: 1063
Location: St. Louis, Mo
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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| ryohey wrote: |
| Thanks Guys. I was told that cam is like a cheater cam and just wanted to see what you thought. Still in the research phase and looking at a lot of things. The Build is going to be over time. Brain, thanks for the advise. |
W100 as mentioned above, or the Scat C25 is what I used in my 1776 build with stock heads and 34ICTs. My 1776 build was very similar to what you are planning. The C25 was great.
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
that fucking thing looks like it drove through a J.C. Whitney catalogue and hit everything on the way out  |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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| kangaboy wrote: |
| ryohey wrote: |
| Thanks Guys. I was told that cam is like a cheater cam and just wanted to see what you thought. Still in the research phase and looking at a lot of things. The Build is going to be over time. Brain, thanks for the advise. |
W100 as mentioned above, or the Scat C25 is what I used in my 1776 build with stock heads and 34ICTs. My 1776 build was very similar to what you are planning. The C25 was great. |
How well does it idle with the ict's? |
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slalombuggy
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9147
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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| I just put a C25 in a 1679 I built for a SCab, The owner loves it, great bottom end, doesn't run out of breath as quick and idles great with the stock carb and ignition. |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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You will most likely find that the Elgin run better than the 86a.
As for the header/muffler, nont think you need to do any mods to make it fit a 40 hp based engine. - Its a good header for small engines.
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
You will most likely find that the Elgin run better than the 86a.
As for the header/muffler, nont think you need to do any mods to make it fit a 40 hp based engine. - Its a good header for small engines. |
Why is that???? When you plot and look at the numbers the two profiles differences are so small that if there are any differences in how they run it will be just be noise. Evaluating cams with a dyno or driving impressions is only good if it is done back to back in the same engine.
Even then if one cam over another is better at valve spring control and makes more power because it's not floating, a spring upgrade could level the playing field. All I am saying is you have to be very careful if only driving impressions and the dyno are used to evaluate a cam. The dial indicator has to be paid attention to also.
There is nothing magical about one cam or another. There is always a reason for the results. Dan |
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kangaboy
Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2010
Posts: 1063
Location: St. Louis, Mo
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
| kangaboy wrote: |
| ryohey wrote: |
| Thanks Guys. I was told that cam is like a cheater cam and just wanted to see what you thought. Still in the research phase and looking at a lot of things. The Build is going to be over time. Brain, thanks for the advise. |
W100 as mentioned above, or the Scat C25 is what I used in my 1776 build with stock heads and 34ICTs. My 1776 build was very similar to what you are planning. The C25 was great. |
How well does it idle with the ict's? |
Great. There was no noticeable problem. I had it idling at 1000rpm, and it functioned just as I figured it would.
_________________
-74 Standard - "CaliBug" 2084T, MS3X w/FI and Crank Fire
-76 Westy - "Gandalf"
-18 GTI SE
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
that fucking thing looks like it drove through a J.C. Whitney catalogue and hit everything on the way out |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Cam selection? |
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| kangaboy wrote: |
| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
| kangaboy wrote: |
| ryohey wrote: |
| Thanks Guys. I was told that cam is like a cheater cam and just wanted to see what you thought. Still in the research phase and looking at a lot of things. The Build is going to be over time. Brain, thanks for the advise. |
W100 as mentioned above, or the Scat C25 is what I used in my 1776 build with stock heads and 34ICTs. My 1776 build was very similar to what you are planning. The C25 was great. |
How well does it idle with the ict's? |
Great. There was no noticeable problem. I had it idling at 1000rpm, and it functioned just as I figured it would. |
Probably should of asked differently. Do all four cylinder fire at idle when you do the pull plug wire test. A fail at this test is NOT a good idle. Unburned fuel is not good for a engine. Also if it fails this test it is not a good idea to let it idle for long periods.
Dan |
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
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Location: Oregon Coast
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