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Abelclasico
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2017
Posts: 152
Location: Carrboro, NC
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 Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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after spending some 'quality time' dealing with the trunk, this is how it looks now. So far, this has been the most time consuming task on the restoration. I tried to preserve as much as possible from the trunk but the metal is so thin that I ended up cutting more than desired.
Most of the time was spend filling in all the little holes and imperfections from welding the metal patches.
I am still amazed at how good (from a distance) everything looks after a coat of Master Series.
I think I am now ready to move to the passenger's side. Still looking for a replacement panel/patch for the front wing 
cheers,
Abel
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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Yes....looks great!
That master series is fantastic stuff.
I have something for you.
You do a LOT of welding. I have an industry friend whose company has been making a damn good product for about 10 years or so.
Its a ceramic spray for the mig nozzle and wire guide tip that prevents spatter from sticking to it at all. I just got to use some last week.
He sent me three cans as a sample. I would like to send you a can and I am sending a can to a buddy up in Minnesota.
If you like what it does...would you please review it here?
This buddy of mine spent about 40 years in the conductive electronics ink industry. He is a chemist. He just retired at the end of November. I had no idea he had a private company on the side.
I called him in December and asked what he was going to do now....and he said...."spend more time with my side company". I have known him for like 15 years.....and had no idea he made a product on the side.
After he explained what it was...and that he has a couple hundred clients (mostly large welding shops and schools)....that swear by this product (I had never heard of it).....he was laughing that if he just had another 50-60 customers its would be a fairly respectable retirement business.
I asked if it worked...and he said let me send you some. You tell me.
I told him he needs to explore the hundreds of forums where people restore cars. Tons of people weld.
He says that the welding supply houses hate the product ...because it cuts into sales for nozzles and tips.
PM me your address.
Ray |
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Abelclasico
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2017
Posts: 152
Location: Carrboro, NC
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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Hi Ray,
that's super generous of you. I really appreciate it and will PM you my address.
I will be more than happy to review the product and even introduce it on another forum I am part of, Minimania, that specializes on everything Mini (and even 'BINI", the BMW Mini...).
thanks again,
Abel |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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| Abelclasico wrote: |
Hi Ray,
that's super generous of you. I really appreciate it and will PM you my address.
I will be more than happy to review the product and even introduce it on another forum I am part of, Minimania, that specializes on everything Mini (and even 'BINI", the BMW Mini...).
thanks again,
Abel |
Oddly.....a few years back.....I bought Deves piston rings for my 1.7l build (hopefully starting late this year) .....and one of the few people/groups selling them on line was "Mini-Mania". Ray |
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Abelclasico
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2017
Posts: 152
Location: Carrboro, NC
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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 ...small world, as they say. Yes, Minis is how I was introduced into classic cars. Very simple compared to the 411 in so many ways!,
cheers,
Abel |
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Abelclasico
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2017
Posts: 152
Location: Carrboro, NC
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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after seeing Walter's restoration[url] https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=744693&start=80 [/url] it made me wonder how these cars rust in complete different places on the same area. The plates on top of the gas tank seem to be very brittle and the screws look like bonded into the metal. My question is what to do with this. Since I have to work on that area, should I try to remove those plates? Replacing them concerns me.
What do you all suggest?
cheers,
Abel
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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Ok....you are a KILLER welder....but this area is one I would not go cutting patches for. Not for sure saying its an issue...but that trunk step between the strut towers....is pretty much the crumple zone.
Its supposed to be thin. Its pretty much only stiff enough to support things due to the stamped in ribs and being "triangulated" between all of teh other members its welded to.
First...so everyone knows...if you can't tell...how it got this bad.
The huge ugly rust patch inside the yellow line area...is from brake fluid. Either from constant overflowing when filling or from fluid being belched back up from a plugged compensation port or a cracked reservoir or from leaking lines. It runs downhill....and flows under the carpet and stays wet with brake fluid.
It also flows laterally and into the ribs near the gas tank sender unit plate if there is enough of it (red arrow).....but the yellow arrow shows a crusty, muddy, mossy trunk seal so either the trunk was left partially open where it sat or was a poor fit. Water gets in...goes to the carpet...drips down into the stamped in ribs beneath it....either mixes with brake fluid or not...and proceeds to rust away over theeons.
What to do with this area?
First...the screws that need to come loose. Take an eyedropper with phosphoric acid and drip on each screw. They ill come ut shortly.
Then....wire wheel all of the crust away. Neutralize with phosphoric acid. Any small and pinhole rust throughs....leave them. Put paper tape behind them and then fill with thickened master series.....but first....
Cut a plate...maybe 1/16"...heavy gauge. Cut it to the shape of teh yellow line. Then maybe a gentle bend where the two red lines are. You kind of want to mimic the upper deck. From the underside right above teh gas tank....tack weld to strut tower ends...tack weld and bead weld to teh fire wall....and tack weld or bead weld to the forward vertical and tack weld in a few spots on the main panel.
So you are just heavily strengthening it.
The other problem...is that the bodies were pretty much not painted with anything but primer...underneath...above the gas tank. Ray |
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Abelclasico
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2017
Posts: 152
Location: Carrboro, NC
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:19 am Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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Thank you Ray, I was not sure what to do with that area.
After reading your explanation, I have a couple more questions:
1) once I remove the round plates, seeing that they look crusty. should I try to replace them?
2) When welding the plate on the yellow area, should I just permanently cover the round plates or make holes for them.
3) Also, when welding the plate on the yellow area, would it be easier to weld it from above instead of from underneath (which means that I need to remove the gas tank)? Unless I misread your instructions
thanks again for the master tips,
Abel |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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| Abelclasico wrote: |
Thank you Ray, I was not sure what to do with that area.
After reading your explanation, I have a couple more questions:
1) once I remove the round plates, seeing that they look crusty. should I try to replace them?
2) When welding the plate on the yellow area, should I just permanently cover the round plates or make holes for them.
3) Also, when welding the plate on the yellow area, would it be easier to weld it from above instead of from underneath (which means that I need to remove the gas tank)? Unless I misread your instructions
thanks again for the master tips,
Abel |
OK....let me kind of break down my logic for you to give you some choices.
1. Yes...you REALLY need those round holes and ports. Those are maintenance ports. You need to be able to reach and replace breather hoses, fuel gauge sender, fuel filler hose clamp (this one I did not even know existed until Lars told me!) and gas tank clamp.
The good news is that these lids or covers are pretty sturdy. While you might find one with a crusty edge where it contacted metal...wire wheeling it and painting it with epoxy would make it look almost new.
So yes you would need to cut out the access port holes. But I think trying to weld that in from the trunk side would make it too hard to hide.
2. With the amount of rust you have....in my opinion... you MUST remove the gas tank. You need to be able to fully inspect the firewall and suspension joints. Pretty much with that much rust...its just too simple to pull all of the front suspension off and the gas tank out.
3. The main reason I suggested using a sheet of structural sheet metal....is to get you away from trying to weld on that shelf structure. Yes...I realize you have serious rust and its thin and crispy. I feel that means it needs bracing.
We both know it may be so thin that in its current rusted condition it really cannot be welded without adding in patches. I dont totally suggest not doing that...but I think that should be avoided until the last minute.
That whole shelf structure is thin from teh factory...because its designed to just collapse and crush...squeezing the gas tank...which is purposely held at an angle....downward. In a bad front collision.....the front subframe rear mount will shear off the body. The two frame arms on each side under the inner fender wall will bend and collapse. These carry the forward two connecting points of the sub frame and the anti-sway bar.
That shelf unit will just be a compacted mess. But this does not mean that its not "structural".
It does not carry load...so much as it keeps the two side structures described above... which are the mounting points for the front suspension subframe......as well as the strut towers......parallel to each other.
If that shelf structure both the horizontal part on the top with the access ports and the vertical wall section right behind the spare tire.....is weakened.....it has issues with preventing the two chassis side rails where the suspension ounts...as well as the strut towers....from twisting out of plane to each other when you corner...or one side has bump load.
So.....really I am just looking at what you can do....to cosmetically make that shelf unit work...and also strengthen its lateral strength being that it already has rust damage.
Instead of a sheet of metal underneath...you might just be able to suffice with some "tubes" welded together in a lattice and attached to the underside above the gas tank...tack welded in spots to the metal shelf and extending to the strut tower areas.
Since my suspension is off right now, tonight or tomorrow I should be able to get underneath...its raining now....and snap a picture of where I think you might put strengthening tubes or braces.
The cosmetic patching could be done with anything from bondo to body solder. Ray |
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Abelclasico
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2017
Posts: 152
Location: Carrboro, NC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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Oh dear! that is more than I was expecting to do on that area
I appreciate the detailed information on how to fix that area. I am 'a bit' hesitant to remove the front suspension at this point of the restoration as I am working on my yard and have to move the car out of the way sometimes.
I will inspect the rusted area (clean up with wire brush) and see how did the damage is. If there are holes on the shelf, then I will have to do as you recommend. However, I might postpone that job as I was hoping to be done with the exterior before.
Again, thanks Ray for your generous advise and knowledge.
Abel |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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| Abelclasico wrote: |
Oh dear! that is more than I was expecting to do on that area
I appreciate the detailed information on how to fix that area. I am 'a bit' hesitant to remove the front suspension at this point of the restoration as I am working on my yard and have to move the car out of the way sometimes.
I will inspect the rusted area (clean up with wire brush) and see how did the damage is. If there are holes on the shelf, then I will have to do as you recommend. However, I might postpone that job as I was hoping to be done with the exterior before.
Again, thanks Ray for your generous advise and knowledge.
Abel |
Looking at what you have....condition wise....you have no choice but to remove the suspension....at some point....just to get to all of the serious rust area you might have in the front end.
Actually its very simple to remove only the subframe....to remove the fuel tank ....work underneath.....and put the subframe back in so you can roll it around.
1. Remove the left hand center tie rod connection from the steering box pitman arm.
2. Remove the three bolts to the idler arm bracket and leave it connected to the right outer tie rod end.
3. remove the right and left hand tie rod pins from the right and left hand wheel castings.
5. Jack the car up and put supports under it to take the load off. the tires.
6. remove the nut on each control arm that locks the outer sway bar rubber bushing to each one and fold the sway bar up and forward out of the way or take it off.
7. Either remove the nut on each ball joint and press each one out of teh control arm....or.....remove the three bolts on each one that bolts it to the strut. If you do this second one.....put the three bolts back in their holes and a nut on one or two to keep the strut, steering knuckle and disc assembly in place with the wheel.
The best way to go with this is to do the first one...pulling the ball joint out of the control arm.
8. Now you are down to removing the three big bolts that hold the subframe on. Remove them and put a jack under the subframe. Its less than 100 lbs with control arms and centerlink connected.
You should be able to remove teh fuel tank at this point. You may have to unbolt the steering box but I do not think so.
If you need to leave the gas tank out and come back to this area...you can loosely stick the ball joins back in the control arms, put the subframe in place loosely....and connect up teh linkages loosely and roll it around. Ray |
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Abelclasico
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2017
Posts: 152
Location: Carrboro, NC
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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Thank you Ray. I will inspect the shelf area closer this weekend (weather permitting) for a better assessment. I will clean it with a wire wheel and see how deep the rust is. Let's hope it did not go through the meatal,
thanks,
Abel |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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| Abelclasico wrote: |
Thank you Ray. I will inspect the shelf area closer this weekend (weather permitting) for a better assessment. I will clean it with a wire wheel and see how deep the rust is. Let's hope it did not go through the meatal,
thanks,
Abel |
If you did not get major rust throughs.....I would not worry much about it. The main worry of this shelf area are the connection point areas to the strut tower points and to the cab firewall itself. Ray |
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Losty420
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2020
Posts: 13
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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| When removing the steering subframe, as Ray described in excellent detail two posts back, how does one know where it lines up when reinstalling? What reference marks are advised? |
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Abelclasico
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2017
Posts: 152
Location: Carrboro, NC
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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Crisis averted! After cleaning the shelf area, I was glad to find that the rust damage can be repaired with some Oxygone + Masterseries. I might apply some light body filler to smooth the imperfections caused by the surface rust, though.
Now, removing the plates was a bit of a fight as some of them were very rusted. Actually, I do not know if I will be able to salvage the two round ones. the edges disintegrated after a light wire brush. Would anybody know or have any of these plates for sale? or, can they be sourced from other VW vehicles?
cheers,
Abel
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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| Abelclasico wrote: |
Crisis averted! After cleaning the shelf area, I was glad to find that the rust damage can be repaired with some Oxygone + Masterseries. I might apply some light body filler to smooth the imperfections caused by the surface rust, though.
Now, removing the plates was a bit of a fight as some of them were very rusted. Actually, I do not know if I will be able to salvage the two round ones. the edges disintegrated after a light wire brush. Would anybody know or have any of these plates for sale? or, can they be sourced from other VW vehicles?
cheers,
Abel
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Excellent!
These types of plates were used across several cars of the era. Mostly early water cooled and late aircooled....thats us. If you know of any dashers or mk1 golf or early Audis...these same types of plates were used to fuel pump and strut access in some vehicles.
I did a search in the classifieds for "parting out"
call these guys
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2058506
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1707881
While you are talking to them...think of what else you might need. Check the trailing edge seams of your front fenders...also you really need to look at the front and rear suspension with the amount of rust you have found.
If you need something like front suspension or rear trailing arms...now would be the time to get it with the guys parting out cars.
Ray |
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Abelclasico
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2017
Posts: 152
Location: Carrboro, NC
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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Thank you Ray for the tips.
I found that those plates are also used on these models Rabbit 75-84
Jetta 80-84, Scirocco 75-81. Hopefully, that will make it easier to find them,
cheers,
Abel |
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Abelclasico
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2017
Posts: 152
Location: Carrboro, NC
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:52 am Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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....Wow! I knew 411 parts were going to be expensive, but $30 for each cover plate from 2 vendors from this site is a bit too steep (IMHO). Luckily, I found them somewhere else for half the price.
It makes me think about selling some of the extra parts that came with my car. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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| Abelclasico wrote: |
....Wow! I knew 411 parts were going to be expensive, but $30 for each cover plate from 2 vendors from this site is a bit too steep (IMHO). Luckily, I found them somewhere else for half the price.
It makes me think about selling some of the extra parts that came with my car. |
Yes....that is TOO MUCH. I have had a few people contact me about what parts would be worth for resale.....if they were to strip and save parts.
I let them know.....that if they cannot acquire a 411/412 wreck that is incapable of being repaired to drive.....for $500 or so......they will likely not find buyers for the parts.
411 and 412 people typically are not buying these cars for their current resale value. They are buying them to restore and drive on a moderate basis. The combination of demand being low.....and the fact that we have a lot of replacing and restoring to do with viftually "0" new parts being made.....few owners have the budget for small items that fetch "collectors" budget.
These lids are an example. Asking $30 each......is stupid. These parts will never move. They are not a common part that needs to be replaced.....they are largely hidden from view....snd they do not stop the car from driving.
If it were me looking for these lids......I have so many important items that need to be funded that I am willing to spend money on......that I would fashion these lids from basic sheet metal and gasket rubber and move on.....long before I spent $$ for someone gouging costs.
I woulf pay a maximum of $10-15 for a part like that. Ray |
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Abelclasico
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2017
Posts: 152
Location: Carrboro, NC
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Restauration of 71 411 wagon |
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I totally agree with you Ray. I 'politely' declined the offer for $65 (2 covers) + $ 15 shipping and decided to look somewhere else.
I think I will fabricate my own the same way I did for the spare wheel compartment. I am thinking that even paint can lids (after some modifications) will do,
cheers,
Abel |
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