Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions

[raygreenwood]

Oh...and really....all the talk of sinks and tubs....These are mainly just tools for at home, limited work for the breaking down where you can use degreasers and water.

Really....the best $100 you can spend...and it means this is not a professional constant use system...but I used mine for 6 years with Kerosene and emulsifier solvent with no issues.....and gave it away when I moved and its still working....is just buy a harbor freight parts washer.

Use the sinks, water and soap to get rid of dirt and thick crud. And use the parts washer to get your stuff really clean for inspection.

Then take it to a machine shop (case mainly) for a jet-wash. Then back to your sink to meticulously clean galleys.

Machined steel surfaces should be solvent, blow dry and then oil only. So unless you are leaving it completely in the hands of a machine shop.....a cheap parts washer and about $50 in kerosene and Gunk concentrate is a bargain. You CAN get you stuff cleaner than a jet washer at home with a good parts washer.

So if you were spending money...get the big $5 plastic tub for mucking out and cleaning Galleys...and skip spending $65-100 on the plastic work sink and just buy a parts washer. Ray

[RalphWiggam]

Just put another 300 or so hard miles on my bus this weekend. Mountain roads, fire roads, etc. Ran beautifully the whole time.

Now that temps aren't in the 90s anymore I decided to push it a bit more this weekend. Was cruising on the highway at mostly 4000rpm. Oil temps were steady at 200-205. CHT's were always below 350 and pressure was always over 40 psi.

I've found that if I keep the rpms up at 3800-4000 I don't even need to drop into 3rd going up hills fully loaded w camping gear. If I get caught at the bottom of a hill below 3700 I have to downshift. Pretty sure the torque peak of the 9590 might be up in the high 3000 range. No idea really. Never seen a dyno chart for it.

I will say though that after 3-4000 miles on the engine, you can really tell things are broken in and running smooth. 100% happy with my build right now.

[Chickensoup]

DO NOT try polishing the crank with emory cloth. it seems like a good idea. to those who dont know whar the emory cloth actually does.

from the pics of the rod journal you sent. wipe it down w/ a paper towel, take a pic, then lube it with an oil. wd-40 will be ok but not for long term. however, i would still use wd-40 or another water displacer because... its a wated displacer.

before you split the case,

find a chunk of foam or cardboard or siplock bagies, and label the for your push rods, and lifters. you should of done the same for you rockers, heads, etc if you havent. dont drop anything when you split the case either. also, dont try wiping off the oil pump cover surface or body yet. you will scratch it w/ that amount of gunk and debre.

dont mix up your rods either. keep the original bearings with the same con rod. you will need this for evaluation later.

there a whole bunch of to not to's as you can see. basically, dont be stupid anddont assume. just ask before you mess something up
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-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

[Ceckert64]

I looked through every. Ray, a couple post back, you mentioned the heads were really black from oil saying there were few oil changes. I didn’t grab a picture but the oil filter had a good buildup of road grime saying that they rarely changed it. Also, the oil breather was crudded with oil gunk.

I will for sure keep the D-jet stuff in good shape. The loom is pretty good accept someone cut the wires to the pressure sensor. If there are people in the T4 forms that need any of those parts, let me know.

For the heads, I will get in contact with headflow masters. I will skip porting. For the bigger valve seat, will I have to do porting? The heads seem in pretty good shape though. I think the valve is just varnish or rust. It hasn’t been hitting the piston.

I will need to hone the cylinders, it looks like it rusted a little at the rings. The pistons are domed.

I did buy a parts washer today, I will post a pictures up with tools I got. Is it fine if I use a water mix degreaser on cylinders if I dry them off immediately after and coat them with oil or WD-40. Also, what’s the best way to preserve the parts from rusting. After I get the parts cleaned up, it will be a month or two before I will be back to the rebuild and I want to keep them good. Any recommendations?
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop

[Chickensoup]

keep the oil filter. send it out and have it cut open and examined.

yes, you can use a solvent based water mix degreaser. just dry the parts and ligtly coat them with oil. use a paper towel to coat the parts.

if you have the head cut for larger seats then yes you will need to do some porting. have someone else do it or learn how to yourself. the heads are where the power is.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

[Ceckert64]

[Ceckert64]

[Ceckert64]

[raygreenwood]

[Chickensoup]

You need to buy a micrometer set and a dial bore gauge now and not later. you have so many things to measure before you can take a step forward after cleaning everything up. try your best not to cbeap out on these tools. you will use them forever and they will last forever if you dont abuse them. always put them back in the case they belong in, dont drop them, have them zeroed, be careful with the tips. my .0001 HF micrometer is surprisingly very accurate and more than worth the 50 odd bucks i paid for the set.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

[Ceckert64]

Ray,
Yes, the D-jet system seems good for sure. My squareback has the original system and it was a bit of a challenge waking from a 40 year slumber, but it works good now. This morning it started right up a 28 degrees F when I left for school, it is a very good system for the time it was made, and even now. I think I will be udgrading to modern on this though.

Should I take the cylinders to a local shop to be honned? Or should I send them somewhere? The bottle brush hone is the same as a flex hone correct?

Chickensoup, I have a micro meter but I do need a dial bore gauge. Just a HF one or is there any other reputable brands

Thanks, Aiden
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop

[Chickensoup]

something like this will be good enough. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900041

HF doesnt sell dial bore gauges to my knowledge.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

[raygreenwood]

[Wreck]

a few things to simplify your rebuild . With the heads , you wouldn't put a set of 42mm in 37.5mm ex heads on a 1680cc type 1 unless you were building an engine to run well over 7000rpm .

your standard 1700 valves will work well up to 6500rpm according to valve sizing calculators . pull the heads apart , clean everything . Then check the guide stem wear and face/seat wear . you may get lucky and just need to change the valve springs and lap the valves in .No porting
.In stock form they flow ( Len Hoffman's data on STF) almost as much as a panchito. (My preference is still new heads)

with the bottom end ,don't forget the case bolt thats goes in from the #3 #4 side just above the oil pick up .

Again , strip and carefully clean the main bearing and rod bearings (don't mix them up ). Inspect for wear . If they have no obvious wear (look for different shades of metal), and that the crank journals are not scored .

Next check the fit of the centre main bearing half in the case . It should push in place and not be easy to just pluck out with your fingers . The rod bearing shells should also stay in place and not fall out .

With a 1700 low mile engine the OEM old VW bearings may be better than anything you are going to buy today ! For a budget build I would consider reusing them .

Bottle brush hones are good for deglasing bores and are easy to use .

[raygreenwood]

[RWK]

If you need help measuring things, I'm pretty close, PM me.
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73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530

[Ceckert64]

RWK, thank you! I may take you up on that if I need some help!

Either way, I can say no carbs for sure, probably new FI but fall back in D-jet worse case.

I kept track of everything, two connecting rod bearing shells fell down in when I was taking the P&C off under the cam. I will get them soon when I split the case. I cleaned the bores of the wrist pins before tapping them out with a brass punch.

Before I forget, is it a 12mm 12point driver to take the bolts off the drive plate?

Here are pictures. Thoughts?

Then parts washer and tools I got yesterday

_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop

[Ceckert64]

Ray, thanks to the link for the dial bore gauge. I do have a micrometer but I probably need a new one, mine is too small for much I’d guess. It’s a Mitutoyo brand. Then I have calipers that are brown&Sharpe

_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop

[Wreck]

To clarify Ray , I just used the 42/37.5 size as a common type 1 combination . meaning if someone proposed on this forum that they wanted to build a 1680cc for a bay bus with those valves sizes people would advise to use stock valves .

Also being a budget build ,1700's don't have seat/valve issues the 2lt's have ,so there could be considerable saving to be made . If the heads check out OK .

I totally get the output you got from your engine , with the correct tuning and sizing of the intake and exhaust plus every clearance would be perfect .

It is amazing what can be achieved over "stock " power levels with know how and simple improvements .

A friend gets approx 80WHP from 1580cc TP's with stock heads ,manifold and 34pict with restrictor plate and a regulation cam based on a 1500s cam .


Cecker64 , I wouldn't be re using those rod bearings and would be measuring the crank with a micrometer .

[Ceckert64]

Wreck, the connecting rod bearings are pretty bad, none are great.

What about the wrist pins? They don’t look great but I don’t have a good frame of reference.

I think I will get the heads rebuilt, I don’t want to take any chances there.

I’m hoping to make those small improvements and that it will help performance and longevity.

Once I get a micrometer that’s bigger, I will check the crank.

Thanks, Aiden
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop