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Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions
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Ceckert64
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

I don’t think the case is junk. I retorqued the case ]With no bearings and the light and there is no gap. I will put in the olds today. The first pic the flashlight is on. I’m going to read through everything again. Thanks for the help
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Ceckert64
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

Okay, I reread it and I think I understand most of it. And I will go back to some things:
1) I’m okay pulling the case apart and re-torque a hundred times. Do I necessarily enjoy doing that, no, but I want to make sure this engine is done right. It will be used for cross country trips and I want it to be reliable and not have to think about rebuilding it for at least 75,000 miles. If it takes a couple extra hours now, I’m okay with that because it’s better than the engine blowing in the middle of no where being stuck. I’m sure you get my point by now.

2) So I’ve been just doing the 6 main bolts so I need to do it all the bolts correct? But the rest of the bolts won’t pull that case apart more for this last test though correct? Or should I put them in and report back with no bearings in?

3) Ray, I don’t understand what/how you are using the depth gauge to measure the mains. If you could elaborate more that would be great. -I as was writing the rest of this, I think I may understand, you are saying measure how much the split bearing sticks out of the case correct?

4) so if I’m understanding this, a small gap above the bearing is fine but below, too big of a gap, I’m losing oil pressure possibly hating the engine.

5) The split bearing is not a perfect thickness through and partly purposeful. Based on what you said and I’m seeing the split bearing half is a little wide for when you put it in one half of the case it starts to compress inward from the case.
When I put the split bearings in, even if I tap it in, it is tight at tight with the top edges of the saddle and the bottom can wiggle back and forth. But when I torque the case this becomes tight at the bottom of the saddle.

Later today I will put the old bearings in.

Thanks for the help everyone, Aiden
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

modok wrote:
The steel shell bearing should have .003-.005" interference fit in the case bore.
That will hold the case halves apart some amount.
If the interferance fit is MORE than .003 you can sand the parting surfaces of the bearing IF you need to do that to tighten the clearance.

I've never heard nor tried to calculate what the gap should be. Some people think the amount of zero is correct..... and that is definitely wrong.
The gap is hard to measure anyway so I don't think it's a good way to check it, but i wonder....


If I roughly guess the case bore stretches .0015, then the min gap would be .003"


Besides making a special fixture to put he bearing into check it, another way to figure it out is....
If you measure the bearing thickness, and measure the bearing ID in the case, the interference can be calculated. That is a little tricky to do since the thickness varies .002 and so does the roundness of the hole, but.... it's not THAT hard to figure out.
The amount the bearing gets thicker is so small, we can assume the bearing thickness does not change, so add the thickness to the ID measurement of the bearing torqued in the case and you can know what size the hole is with the bearing in it.
The amount bigger that is compared to with no bearing in the case = the amount of interference fit.


I am trying to wrap my head around what you are figuring here. I think I understand. I got the same kind of gap at the parting line at the parting line using a Silverline steel backed split bearing on a Type 4 case. This is after checking the empty case halves together with a light. The clearance with the crank journal was on the large side too...like over .0035 in some spots.

I ended up sand sanding the legs on bearing shells on a surface plate, like others have done. Sand, assemble, measure, repeat until the clearance was closer to .002”. I stopped at that point, checked with plastigage to confirm my numbers. I checked that the crank in the torqued case turned smoothly. The gap never totally went away. I also have a set of Mahle mains I might check. They seem to have a steel backed center main as they are heavy.

I think I have chased down every thread on center main spread when checking the case. After reading Jim Martin’s article, I realize how hard it is to measure case bores, center main, etc with the 6 case bolts torqued.

I hope I did everything right.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

Wouldnt sanding down the split bearings make the ID and OD not round assuming the bearing was round the begin with?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

The service manual has specifications for
1 what size the bearing bores are, and
2 specifications for the crank size and clearance....meaning what size the bearing ID is.
If these are correct then it's good to go.
So you end up bolting the case together twice to check those things.

We all agree adding to to step #1-Making sure there are no excessive gaps between the case halves

I would not recommend torquing the old bearings in the case at this point, but I would measure the bearing wall thickness of the new bearings, and the old.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

Ceckert64 wrote:
Okay, I reread it and I think I understand most of it. And I will go back to some things:
1) I’m okay pulling the case apart and re-torque a hundred times. Do I necessarily enjoy doing that, no, but I want to make sure this engine is done right. It will be used for cross country trips and I want it to be reliable and not have to think about rebuilding it for at least 75,000 miles. If it takes a couple extra hours now, I’m okay with that because it’s better than the engine blowing in the middle of no where being stuck. I’m sure you get my point by now.

2) So I’ve been just doing the 6 main bolts so I need to do it all the bolts correct? But the rest of the bolts won’t pull that case apart more for this last test though correct? Or should I put them in and report back with no bearings in?

3) Ray, I don’t understand what/how you are using the depth gauge to measure the mains. If you could elaborate more that would be great. -I as was writing the rest of this, I think I may understand, you are saying measure how much the split bearing sticks out of the case correct?

4) so if I’m understanding this, a small gap above the bearing is fine but below, too big of a gap, I’m losing oil pressure possibly hating the engine.

5) The split bearing is not a perfect thickness through and partly purposeful. Based on what you said and I’m seeing the split bearing half is a little wide for when you put it in one half of the case it starts to compress inward from the case.
When I put the split bearings in, even if I tap it in, it is tight at tight with the top edges of the saddle and the bottom can wiggle back and forth. But when I torque the case this becomes tight at the bottom of the saddle.

Later today I will put the old bearings in.

Thanks for the help everyone, Aiden


I think what Ray is suggesting is to measure the depth of the case bores from the parting line to the lowest point of the bore and comparing the 2 sides of the hole. It is not uncommon to find the bore to be a little to one side or the other.

A number of people have reported the same issue you are having with the Silverline center main, myself included. I am using oversized bearings on an align bores type 4 case. If your case looked fine when you did the light thing without the bearings, then I think your probably good. Like you, I am basically building a stock plodder that will last a long time.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

Not sure if these help but the old and new bearings compared. The olds are standard, new are first over
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Edit Image below is the Old bearing, I labeled it wrong.
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Edit Image above is the Old bearing, I labeled it wrong.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

The new bearings should be .005" thicker than than old
And roughly they are, so, that's good.

The measurements are not accurate because you need a ball on one anvil of the micrometer to measure curved surfaces.
you can buy a ball that clips on for about 15$

What shape the bearings are when not in the hole is called the "spread".
I don't know what that's supposed to be in this case, but it would sense the new ones have a bit more. And they don't. Hmmm, weird.


Last edited by modok on Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:14 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggest Reply with quote

modok wrote:
The measurements are not accurate because you need a ball on one anvil of the micrometer to measure curved surfaces.
you can buy a ball that clips on for about 15$

I was wondering about how the flat ends on a curve would be accurate, thanks
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

Thanks for the info Orwell, I thought I was going to be able to avoid some of these types of problems by using NOS mains but I guess not Confused

Side note- I’m thinking of having DPR do the crank, rods, flywheel and have them balance them.
Maybe have Kennedy rebuild the Pressure plate since I have an OG VW one
And Head flow masters do the heads? I’ve heard they’ve had some issues as of lately though.
Does that sound like a good combo of places? Or should I look elsewhere
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

Ceckert64 wrote:
Thanks for the info Orwell, I thought I was going to be able to avoid some of these types of problems by using NOS mains but I guess not Confused

Side note- I’m thinking of having DPR do the crank, rods, flywheel and have them balance them.
Maybe have Kennedy rebuild the Pressure plate since I have an OG VW one
And Head flow masters do the heads? I’ve heard they’ve had some issues as of lately though.
Does that sound like a good combo of places? Or should I look elsewhere


I bought a 2l crank and rods from Jose and had him balance and dynamic balance everything. I was really happy with the work and Jose answers his phone. My case came from EMW and that was good work too. EMW does heads and the gamut of ACVW machine shop services. Both are well regarded.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

orwell84 wrote:
Ceckert64 wrote:
Thanks for the info Orwell, I thought I was going to be able to avoid some of these types of problems by using NOS mains but I guess not Confused

Side note- I’m thinking of having DPR do the crank, rods, flywheel and have them balance them.
Maybe have Kennedy rebuild the Pressure plate since I have an OG VW one
And Head flow masters do the heads? I’ve heard they’ve had some issues as of lately though.
Does that sound like a good combo of places? Or should I look elsewhere


I bought a 2l crank and rods from Jose and had him balance and dynamic balance everything. I was really happy with the work and Jose answers his phone. My case came from EMW and that was good work too. EMW does heads and the gamut of ACVW machine shop services. Both are well regarded.

Jose is at DPR right? I hadn’t really heard of EMW before, I’ve seen it mentioned but never had looked into them. EMW looks to have only good reviews, I will probably use them for heads.

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

Yes, Jose at DPR. Jorge at EMW answers his phone too. Just to let you know, I torqued the Mahle center main I have in the case and still got a small gap...just barely. You would really have to look for it...dark room, flashlight in just the right place. I am going to measure it with the bore gauge to see if the clearances are any better than the Silverlines before I did the sanding. I can’t remember if you were checking your clearances with a bore gauge. Measuring the center main was an ass ache. There is so much stuff you can measure, but at some point it’s not going to give you much information you can act on.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

Center main sizing is simple enough, really.

You assemble the bearings in the case like you did, and see a bit of light at the case parting line.
Six main case bolts torqued to spec..

Sand the faces of the bearing shells on some wet/dry on a surface plate.
Just a few strokes..
Clean the grit off and try again.
Repeat until the case parting line light gap goes away.
You want the shells to be sanded -just- enough so the parting line gap closes when torqued, not more.



You might notice that the faces where the two bearing shells touch isn't really that nice/flat/smooth anyways.
Getting them flat and hitting each other all the way might end up being just what it takes to make them fit the main bore,
So sanding the faces is a way to make them better in a couple of ways.

Might just be SOP;
Looking closely at a lot of them,
i can't help but think they might expect you do be doing this.. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

I have a suspicion that this exact problem was causing me oil pressure issues until I did a bunch of other stuff to finally get it in check.

I did the check with no bearing and there was absolutely zero gap. But I never checked for a gap with the center bearing installed.

Back then everything I read said as long as there is no gap with no bearings then you are good to go.

If I were you I would get that gap to as small as possible with whatever bearing you are going to use.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

It won’t hurt anything and probably even help to follow Clatter’s suggestion. I had the gap AND the bearing clearance was large so I had to sand the bearing many times before it made much difference with the clearance.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

I will work on sanding it soon. Before I start I want to get a dial bore gauge and get some measurements before I sand too much off. I definitely don’t want to lose oil pressure
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

Ceckert64 wrote:
Before I start I want to get a dial bore gauge and get some measurements


smart move Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:57 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

Just to let you know, I measured the Mahle center main I mentioned earlier and got similar results. The clearance was larger across the width of the bearing like above .005”, while it was like .002 closer to the parting line. This is really close to what I got with the Silverlines. I think sanding the ends of the legs deburrs and evens out the surfaces that touch.

Sanding the bearing was tedious partly because I was really cautious not to overshoot. Getting a bore gauge on the center main is tricky as the gauge wants to slip into the oil groove. It helps to have lots of light and line it up with one hand in the case and move the stalk to get the maximum deflection on the gauge. It’s best to do it with the other bearings out.

In the end, the sanding did give me good clearances all the way around and got rid of most of the gap. I could have got it closer but didn’t want to end up too tight. Plastigage and trying out the crank told me I was pretty good. Did I actually accomplish anything that would make a difference? I don’t know. Peace of mind maybe. I certainly got way better at measuring. There will be things in my build I won’t be able to nail down exactly. If I can get it right, I will try, some things will just have to be close enough. This is knowing that stuff I have slapped together in the past was probably good for 50k miles.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions Reply with quote

Long time and nothing has happened much. I think I finally got the bearing to were I want. I think next week I’m going to get the parts sent out for machining at DPR. So a couple things, I’m debating just having them do a complete balance on the rotating assembly where they balance pistons, rods, cranks, flywheel, fan. It wouldn’t be that much more expensive for a complete balance with rods and pistons. Is it worth it to just have them do balance that part or should I just do it myself? I’m also thinking that my local machine shop seems pretty good and I’m thinking have them balance the fan.

On another note, I’ve been thinking about getting my original pressure plate rebuilt by Kennedy. I think it is reasonable, any thoughts on that?

On the heads, since the drop test yielded that the valve seats were good in place, would it be fine to have my local machine shop grind the original seats and put a three angle valve job on them along with new valve stems.

Currently for fuel system I’m thinking do modern fuel injection. I have decided not to do D-jet since parts are getting harder to find for them and taking lots of longer trips, I wouldn’t want to be stranded. It’s a great system and I like the D-jet but I don’t think it’s my best option here. I think it would also be and interesting challenge to build my own system and I could learn a lot from it. I also like the prospects of better fuel economy and power from a modern system.

On a tangent, for the transmission I’m going to keep it stock and not touch it unless I have issues with it. But, I would like a little more speed but the ability to keep RPMs lower in at highway driving. So I was thinking since it will have a bit more power than stock, could I swap to 15 inch rims, get some bigger tires and use that a way to reduce the RPMs on the engine as a kind of poor mans change of gearing? Would it cause the engine to run too hot or cause issues?

So what is everyone’s options on all this I’ve come up with? Good, bad indifferent?

Thanks in advance for the help, Aiden
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