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Ceckert64
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Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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I was genuinely surprised how well the crank turned out to be. My junkyard crank seems pretty good for what it it. The range for the first oversize is 2.3510-2.3518 for the main journals and #4 main journal is 1.5640-1.5648. The rod Journals are 1.9577-1.9585. A few seem a bit bigger than the range specificities in the manual. I only need a polish on the crank
So some bad news, the machine shop said it will be fall before They get a chance to work on my parts  So I’m going to look for a new shop. The machinist mentioned a guy named Pete Hubbard and that he is a VW guru that the guy at the shop had him do some work for a VW engine he had so if I can find Pete Hubbard, he must be good.
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1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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Today I worked on rebuilding the distributor, it was raining all day so no body work could be done.
First of all, there are sooo many shims. There are 6 places shims go with a minimum of 10 shims with 8 different styles/sizes. Then, I forgot put the shim back in between the two shafts! I have to take it all back apart again to fix it. I also bent one of the plates in the process but the spare Hall effect distributor that was rusty and trashed had a good plate. I also discovered I needed the sensor itself off the junk distributor because the one I was rebuilding had a crack.
Before:
In process:
Sorta done:
Don’t lose the little pin!
There are more photos in the gallery of the distributor but I don’t want to clog this thread with 20+ of it.
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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I got the shim I was missing put in and I got the distributor to where it needed to be. For the most part that is hood to go, I just need the plastic piece. I’m working on CADing it up to print.
Good news! I went to my local VW shop and he has some crapped out rabbits and they used the same setup for the ignition and I will be able to get the control module, wiring harness and special coil for it for $25! I might get a set or two but the good news is that I will have the wiring loom with the correct ends and I will be able to get spares of all the parts :
I also got this $20 garage sale engine stand. I will have to modify it to work but heavy duty home made one. I brought it home in the hillbilly bug which it’s behind, now that engine screams performance!
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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| Ceckert64 wrote: |
Today I worked on rebuilding the distributor, it was raining all day so no body work could be done.
First of all, there are sooo many shims. There are 6 places shims go with a minimum of 10 shims with 8 different styles/sizes. Then, I forgot put the shim back in between the two shafts! I have to take it all back apart again to fix it. I also bent one of the plates in the process but the spare Hall effect distributor that was rusty and trashed had a good plate. I also discovered I needed the sensor itself off the junk distributor because the one I was rebuilding had a crack.
Before:
Don’t lose the little pin!
There are more photos in the gallery of the distributor but I don’t want to clog this thread with 20+ of it. |
OK...I was saving these to slave into one of my D-jet distributors......but I happen to have three brand new NOS, Beck Arnley entire Hall effect assemblies for a 1983 VW GTI.
The water cooled distributor bodies are so close to what we use...that with a few shims and some work I can put them into a D-jet distributor.
The hall effect distributor you have...is very, very close to the watercooled rabbit/golf distributors....they should work. Of course that means that you need to use the module from a GTI as well. Really you need to use whatever module the sensor is matched to.
These are nothing special...it just happened to be a GTI part number. I am sure this went into more than a handful of watercooled VW/Audi etc. cars.
I got these three units on a Rockauto closeout.
I think this is the same one:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=940812...Y9vw%3D%3D
I will snap some pics in the am. If you want one let me know!
Ray |
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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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FWIW, those P&L you linked from AA are beetle.
Flat tops, 22mm pin, wrong stud pattern and length; no workie.
Look for 2.0 bus type 4 dish-top piston setups.
You won’t like the price.
AA works, but pretty much anything else is better.
Might scour the classys or win on Crankslist or something..?
Good used sets do occasionally show up in junk motors but it’s rare.
You can polish your own crank you know.. 
Might have a go at checking the deck on your case(s).
How good a type 4 case is depends upon how much “sag” is found near the center main.
(Never liked that term.. It’s that the deck is ‘high’ - or sticking up away from the centerline of the crank)
They all have it.
Measure and see how much your case has.
A thou or three, and it’s a really good case.
4-5-6 thou and it’s OK/marginal.
More than that and it better be a beater or desperate times.
See also the “carbon paper trick” for another way to check.
All used cases have it. Question is how much.
Most any serious builder will deck a case just to get it back flat again.
Also makes a quick/easy way to measure how much by counting the number number of thou it takes to clean up.
Maybe your low mileage driven-by-a-grandma 1.7 from a 411 has a really nice case that doesn’t or barely need a deck job..?
Ever find a place to do balancing?
Can’t remember.. What trans is in your bus?
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Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Chickensoup
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Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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| Clatter wrote: |
You can polish your own crank you know..
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ehh
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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| Chickensoup wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
You can polish your own crank you know..
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ehh |
Time to study up, son..
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What’s That Noise?!? |
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Chickensoup
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Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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| Clatter wrote: |
| Chickensoup wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
You can polish your own crank you know..
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ehh |
Time to study up, son.. |
ehh because it depends. emery cloth, a shoe lace, and a tailgate isnt gonna turn out well. Not saying thats what you suggested. But for best results the crank needs to be spinning. which is something i could do, but not ceckert. not today at least. plus its like 30 bucks at keiths and by the time he buys the correct cloth(and enough of it), imo its worth the extra few bucks to just send it off with the rest of the parts. polishing usually removes material so ideally you'd want to remove it evenly.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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Wow, this engine build has really hit a wall  I’m really close to having the beetle done. I’ve done 2 engine “rebuilds” since the start of this thread so I’ve got a bit more experience for this one. I would used the term rebuild lightly for the two I’ve done as the one was for my beetle just completely taking it apart and fixing the oil pick up and head while the second was going through my Squarebacks engine doing some head work and cylinder honing. Either way those two engines are running good now so hopefully that will be how this one goes.
Anyways I went on Facebook and stumbled onto some 2.0L pistons and heads for sale. The pistons and cylinders are Mahle and the heads are rebuilt by headflow masters and none of its been used. Here are some ad pics.
They are rebuilt heads but I’m not sure what version, I don’t think 1.8L and they look like they have closed up air injection ports so 1.7L? I think this might work out great for what I need but I know there could be risk in them being rebuilt bus heads. The seller said he asked for a rebuilt set of heads so they could be from anything. The heads fit 2L cylinders and it looks like the step is machined out. Any thoughts? Would they be a good buy?
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1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop
Last edited by Ceckert64 on Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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Just check the part # cast inside the rocker box.
No...those have never been 1.7L's...unless they have been flycut so deep that the dimple is gone. They look like 2.0 heads.
Run a solvent test. Make sure they seal. Mark the valves and take them apart one by one and clean everything. Ray |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:30 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Just check the part # cast inside the rocker box.
No...those have never been 1.7L's...unless they have been flycut so deep that the dimple is gone. They look like 2.0 heads.
Run a solvent test. Make sure they seal. Mark the valves and take them apart one by one and clean everything. Ray |
I should have been a bit clearer, they are for sale and I was asking if it was a good buy, I have bought them yet.
I may ask about the part number on the heads.
Thanks for the letting me know they are 2.0L heads, I wasn’t sure.
If I get them I will do a solvent test.
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1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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| Ceckert64 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Just check the part # cast inside the rocker box.
No...those have never been 1.7L's...unless they have been flycut so deep that the dimple is gone. They look like 2.0 heads.
Run a solvent test. Make sure they seal. Mark the valves and take them apart one by one and clean everything. Ray |
I should have been a bit clearer, they are for sale and I was asking if it was a good buy, I have bought them yet.
I may ask about the part number on the heads.
Thanks for the letting me know they are 2.0L heads, I wasn’t sure.
If I get them I will do a solvent test. |
They "should" be a good deal. It depends on how much I guess.
I fully agree with getting rid of that damn step in the combustion chamber....UNLESS.....you know exactly what the step height is and the chamber volumes are.....BEFORE you leave the machine shop. Far too many times you get a late head that came with a step or a nice early head that someone "chopped" a step into......and now you either end up with way too much deck or a deck that no common shim set will set right.
Also it would be nice to know what valves were used and whether they have hardened tips and chrome stems. If not.....its not a deal breaker but depends on the price.
Ray |
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Ceckert64
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Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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I ended up getting the heads with pistons and cylinders, those should be here in a few weeks.
So I still have to find someone to balance the crank, I might see what the wait time at the previous machine shop was as they said fall but now I will probably be stuck even later out.
Today I felt like seeing how the crank and bearing fit up. When I tried to put the number 4 bearing in place it wouldn’t go on, I got it on with a little bit of force part way. I took it off and there were scratches on the bearing surface but only in two spots. I was thinking it might be out of round. The bearing that was on the 2L crank when I got it fit fine. I broke out the calipers and noticed that the ID varied in measurement so I stuck it on the OD and got this
Link
it’s out of round by .007 inches. I checked the other #4 mains and they had less than .001 if any. These are NOS Metal leve from VWNOS.com. Anyone seen anything like this before? I don’t think I bent it. But I will probably just use the old #4 bearing from the 2L crank. They are both .25 bearings but the new one is just messed up
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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I currently looking at my cam options and I think the Web 86 with their new mechanical lifters. They offer lifters with an oiling hole which seems like it could be a good idea and those are cheaper than there standard new lifters. Thoughts?
Edit: I’m also thinking of getting the double thrust cam bearing kit from the type4store.com
Let me know if you think I should reconsider any of these to purchase
I also just ordered some NOS Metal Leve connecting rod bearings off of eBay an hour ago that were listed for $50 shipped, offered $35 sent payment and they are already getting shipped out and they are supposed to be here Tuesday 
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1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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| Ceckert64 wrote: |
| I dropped the 2L crank off at the machine shop to find it was in perfect balance for $30. Peace of mind confirmation is worth the $30 as I would have worried too much about it. It almost looks like the shop cleaned the crank |
Did they just balance the crank by itself?
Or did you bring them the whole rotating assembly?
Usually it's the flywheel or pressure plate that's out of balance.
Did they mic it out?
Polish it up?
Doesn't look like it..
Those heads and P&L will put you in a good position.
Adrian does the best rebuilt heads out of the major players who do rebuilt heads.
Bigger valves, too. Stoked.
Hopefully you can get it all together at around 8:1 CR.
There's a worldwide shortage of cam blanks, get what you can.
Scat C25, Web 86 or 73 will all work.
Looks like you're on track to build a nice motor! 
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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| Clatter wrote: |
| Ceckert64 wrote: |
| I dropped the 2L crank off at the machine shop to find it was in perfect balance for $30. Peace of mind confirmation is worth the $30 as I would have worried too much about it. It almost looks like the shop cleaned the crank |
Did they just balance the crank by itself?
Or did you bring them the whole rotating assembly?
Usually it's the flywheel or pressure plate that's out of balance.
Did they mic it out?
Polish it up?
Doesn't look like it..
Those heads and P&L will put you in a good position.
Adrian does the best rebuilt heads out of the major players who do rebuilt heads.
Bigger valves, too. Stoked.
Hopefully you can get it all together at around 8:1 CR.
There's a worldwide shortage of cam blanks, get what you can.
Scat C25, Web 86 or 73 will all work.
Looks like you're on track to build a nice motor! |
I just had them balance the crank by itself, they didn’t polish or mic it. I mic it and it was good.
The flywheel couldn’t fit on there machines the shop specializes in V8’s so they aren’t quite set up for a T4, I’m know they’ve never touched one till mine.
Got to find someone to do the flywheel and I don’t want to ship it out. Maybe they can balance the flywheel and pressure plate if it’s on the crank  but the flywheel also didn’t fit on the machine to machine flywheels. So I guess I could try that if someone else can machine it. DIY machine job on it? I have access to a few metal lathes…
The pistons cylinders and heads were $920 shipped for all which I think is a decent deal since the heads were 1k and P&C ~$450 range. I definitely think it was a good move as getting my heads sent out for rebuild would have done a major stall to this project and I’d end up with a nice bus that’s all ready minus an engine 
I hoping for at least an 8:1 compression ration. No head gaskets for sure. Just sealant and no paper gasket at the base of the cylinders? I will also see where everything lands though.
I will order a cam soon then, Webcams still had them in stock.
I spent a good bit of time looking and still couldn’t find much info on Webcam lifters and pros/cons of an oiling hole. Anyone have any experience or thoughts on that?
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1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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I putting together an order through aircooled.net, wanted to get some thoughts. First, I decided I'm doing a Web 86 cam and FYI Web cam parts are cheaper at aircooled.net than their own site. One big ticket item is I'm going to get the CB intake manifold, Hexbar linkage and air filter kit, I think it should work good. Just please don't conflict with my Eberspacher 
-I will probably take off the quick seat ring assembly lubricant as I've never heard of anyone using such a thing and I don't know that its that necessary
-Then I was thinking of doing of doing a double thrust cam bearings on this engine, I can just order two standard kit right?
-The pressure regulator I selected looks like it will work for what I need. Or would I not need it if I get this fuel pump that is rated at 3.25PSI http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Rotary-Electric-Fuel-Pump-3-25-psi-Adapted-p/rotary.htm
-I added a fuel/vacuum pressure gauge gauge that $25
-Anyone got any promo codes for Aircooled.net? I could really use one for this order!
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Chickensoup
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Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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nice score on the heads!! Real nice score. ACN likes to set high prices on their products. Ive never shopped for bus or T4 stuff, but it may be worth looking for some of those parts elsewhere and save a few buckaroos.
the oil hole on the lifters is not needed. especially with a mild cam like what your after. I think they copied scat on that idea. IDK if it makes enough difference.
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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