| Author |
Message |
gbrandt
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 578
Location: Calgary
|
 Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
 |
|
| shagginwagon83 wrote: |
Charging below freezing temperatures is typically not recommended by most manufactures regardless of battery type.
With lithium it has become a bigger deal since we are trying to protect our investment of battery by giving it ideal conditions so the battery last us 10+ years. |
I believe that lithium can also catch fire if charged below freezing. Quite a few manufacturers put thermal protection into the battery.
_________________
'Lucky' our 1987 Red Westy, ASV 1.9 TDI ~130HP, Peloquin differential (had a GW 2.3 that we loved, but it died, we drove it hard!)
We've driven in 49 countries and 5 continents to date
Canada to Argentina and back, 2015 to 2017.
Canada to Europe and back (including Turkey, Morocco and Iceland), 2017 to 2019
Mexico 2022-2023
https://www.instagram.com/live.travel.play/
http://livetravelplay.ca |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
shagginwagon83
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 3800
Location: VA/TN
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
| gbrandt wrote: |
| I believe that lithium can also catch fire if charged below freezing. Quite a few manufacturers put thermal protection into the battery. |
How many BTU's you think the fire would produce?
Joking. I wasn't aware of that. But yes every lifepo4 system should have temperature control by the BMS to turn off charging.
_________________
Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gbrandt
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 578
Location: Calgary
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
| shagginwagon83 wrote: |
| gbrandt wrote: |
| I believe that lithium can also catch fire if charged below freezing. Quite a few manufacturers put thermal protection into the battery. |
How many BTU's you think the fire would produce?
Joking. I wasn't aware of that. But yes every lifepo4 system should have temperature control by the BMS to turn off charging. |
LOL, probably more than you want 
_________________
'Lucky' our 1987 Red Westy, ASV 1.9 TDI ~130HP, Peloquin differential (had a GW 2.3 that we loved, but it died, we drove it hard!)
We've driven in 49 countries and 5 continents to date
Canada to Argentina and back, 2015 to 2017.
Canada to Europe and back (including Turkey, Morocco and Iceland), 2017 to 2019
Mexico 2022-2023
https://www.instagram.com/live.travel.play/
http://livetravelplay.ca |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Syncro Jael
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013
Posts: 2204
Location: Utah
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
| owokie wrote: |
| I'm interested to hear reviews from people who have several years and hundreds of hours of experience with these units. Anyone? |
I am on my third winter season with a CDH system. I would guess it has hundreds of hours on it. I had the PropexHS2800 for (3)three seasons also. It is a great heater too. Loved it except:
1. It had a huge temperature swing from when turning on and off. Possibly they have improved this? The CDH with Afterburner can be set to .5° and it usually stays within 2°f. This depends on where you place the temperature probe and where the heater outlet is. My probe is at the back of the van and the outlet vent is facing to the front at floor level.
2. I had to add twin oversized saddle tanks to fuel the Propex hunger when winter camping. It was also more difficult to find a place that had the experience to refill the tanks. On my sons van we just hung a 10gal bottle on the back swing away when he lived in his van working in Breckenridge CO. With the CDH I installed a single 4.5gal saddle tank the will last for many days. On low it last 187hours of continuous burn. On High it would be around 50hours. I just camped in 20-30° overnight ambient temps and burned 2 gallons of Kerosene in three nights in 36 hours of use. This is with the interior temp kept at 70°f.
I purchased the CDH just because it was cheap and had great reviews. The Afterburner Controller was a plus!  I can be out at the campfire, turn the heater on, set the temp, see how much fuel I have burned, and many other functions.
If the name brand heaters could do this would I spend 4 times more to have it say their brand name? 
Parts are easy to get, they are inexpensive, and easily replaced.
So far all I have replaced is a glow plug that I damaged when doing a yearly service to the firing chamber. Even using Kerosene it is advisable to service the unit yearly. I am lucky and have a station in town that has bulk K1-Kerosene at the pump. So that is what I burn. The tank is easily filled on the side of the van. So at any fuel stop I can top off the tank if needed with Diesel.
Regarding the Batteries. I chose the Battleborn LiFeP04 100ah. I installed (2)two of them to give me a house bank of 200ah. I purposely installed them under the sink cabinet where the CDH draws it's cold air return. This pulls warmed air into the battery compartment. The BMS system will disconnect the charger if battery temps are too low. The newer smarter batteries now have internal heating elements to stay warm. Go figure!
Running the Dometic, Lights, CDH, and charging phones, cameras, etc. I usually use up about 20% capacity of the house batteries each night. Depending on how cold it is and other usage. I have never been below 70% capacity overnight. The Dometic Fridge/Freezer is the hungry one.
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
candyman
Samba Trout Slayer
Joined: December 20, 2003
Posts: 2694
Location: Missoula MT
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
| Syncro Jael wrote: |
| owokie wrote: |
| I'm interested to hear reviews from people who have several years and hundreds of hours of experience with these units. Anyone? |
I am on my third winter season with a CDH system. I would guess it has hundreds of hours on it. I had the PropexHS2800 for (3)three seasons also. It is a great heater too. Loved it except:
1. It had a huge temperature swing from when turning on and off. Possibly they have improved this? The CDH with Afterburner can be set to .5° and it usually stays within 2°f. This depends on where you place the temperature probe and where the heater outlet is. My probe is at the back of the van and the outlet vent is facing to the front at floor level.
2. I had to add twin oversized saddle tanks to fuel the Propex hunger when winter camping. It was also more difficult to find a place that had the experience to refill the tanks. On my sons van we just hung a 10gal bottle on the back swing away when he lived in his van working in Breckenridge CO. With the CDH I installed a single 4.5gal saddle tank the will last for many days. On low it last 187hours of continuous burn. On High it would be around 50hours. I just camped in 20-30° overnight ambient temps and burned 2 gallons of Kerosene in three nights in 36 hours of use. This is with the interior temp kept at 70°f.
I purchased the CDH just because it was cheap and had great reviews. The Afterburner Controller was a plus! I can be out at the campfire, turn the heater on, set the temp, see how much fuel I have burned, and many other functions.
If the name brand heaters could do this would I spend 4 times more to have it say their brand name?
Parts are easy to get, they are inexpensive, and easily replaced.
So far all I have replaced is a glow plug that I damaged when doing a yearly service to the firing chamber. Even using Kerosene it is advisable to service the unit yearly. I am lucky and have a station in town that has bulk K1-Kerosene at the pump. So that is what I burn. The tank is easily filled on the side of the van. So at any fuel stop I can top off the tank if needed with Diesel.
Regarding the Batteries. I chose the Battleborn LiFeP04 100ah. I installed (2)two of them to give me a house bank of 200ah. I purposely installed them under the sink cabinet where the CDH draws it's cold air return. This pulls warmed air into the battery compartment. The BMS system will disconnect the charger if battery temps are too low. The newer smarter batteries now have internal heating elements to stay warm. Go figure!
Running the Dometic, Lights, CDH, and charging phones, cameras, etc. I usually use up about 20% capacity of the house batteries each night. Depending on how cold it is and other usage. I have never been below 70% capacity overnight. The Dometic Fridge/Freezer is the hungry one.
|
Similar experience here as Syncro Jael. Have 3 years running on my 5kw prolly at least 200 hours on it. Use kerosene exclusively. Unlike Syncro Jael, I have not pulled the unit for routine cleaning (good advice tho). At $100 +/- a pop, Ill just run it hard until it dies then install my spare and buy another spare. As far as batteries, i have 2 100 amp agms. 100watt solar on roof and 160w solar portable as needed. My truckfridge is the biggest draw at 2.6amps when running (it only runs for 5 minutes every 16 minutes). The heater on low draws around .7-.8amps, so pretty minimal. Start up and shut down however draws close to 10amps for a few minutes. On fuel I have 2 5.5 liter tanks installed in rear closet. After a long weekend Shoulder season trip, they are barely half empty.
I agree with Karl about knock offs etc.., however a $500-$600 price differential is pretty significant. And didnt webasto and espar get into trouble over price fixing a few years ago? If so, their hands are no cleaner than the chinese in my book. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
owokie
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2003
Posts: 533
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
| Syncro Jael wrote: |
If the name brand heaters could do this would I spend 4 times more to have it say their brand name?
|
Well, you did drop $2,000 on battleborns that could be knocked off for $500, so.... yes?
Instead, you paid $1500 more because you likely value the same things that I find of value in the Espar. A well-engineered, proven product that's fairly plug and play and higher quality than the alternatives, backed up by good product support, a warranty, and a low likelihood that you'll have to eff with it in the near future.
Thanks for the feedback. Fwiw, my vehicle is diesel so I won't be running a separate tank nor kerosene, also not a Vanagon install. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
owokie
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2003
Posts: 533
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
| candyman wrote: |
I agree with Karl about knock offs etc.., however a $500-$600 price differential is pretty significant. And didnt webasto and espar get into trouble over price fixing a few years ago? If so, their hands are no cleaner than the chinese in my book. |
They sure did (from justice.gov):
"Espar Inc. pleaded guilty to a one-count felony charge in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of New York in Brooklyn."
"According to the charge, Espar and its co-conspirators discussed parking heater prices for commercial vehicles, agreed to set a price floor for parking heater kits for commercial vehicles sold to aftermarket customers, and agreed to coordinate the timing and amount of price increases for parking heaters for commercial vehicles sold to aftermarket customers." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bobbyblack 
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4351
Location: United States, Iowa
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
If it helps anyone, I ordered this shortly after Brandon posted. That's Oct 5th. I got it on my desk today.
Later, I'll find out if it is a version that the AB works with. Not sure of that process just jet, but did join the AB FB group.
-bobby
Edit: connectors picture, not sure it'll be helpful:
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch
Last edited by bobbyblack on Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shagginwagon83
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 3800
Location: VA/TN
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
| bobbyblack wrote: |
If it helps anyone, I ordered this shortly after Brandon posted. That's Oct 5th. I got it on my desk today.
Later, I'll find out if it is a version that the AB works with. Not sure of that process just jet, but did join the AB FB group.
-bobby |
Bobby, there is a 'unit' section under the FB group about checking compatibility. Please keep us posted. As cheap as they are, I'd love to have a spare afterburner compatible unit.
_________________
Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bobbyblack
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4351
Location: United States, Iowa
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
| shagginwagon83 wrote: |
Bobby, there is a 'unit' section under the FB group about checking compatibility. Please keep us posted. As cheap as they are, I'd love to have a spare afterburner compatible unit. |
Looking very likely that this IS AB compatible, as the 'controller' is just on/off and the analogue dial. On the AB page, I see clearly that the analogue one has a board that is compatible... Unless I have a unit that is too new that the AB site has not yet seen. Should I take the board out so as to post pictures of it?
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shagginwagon83
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 3800
Location: VA/TN
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
| bobbyblack wrote: |
| shagginwagon83 wrote: |
Bobby, there is a 'unit' section under the FB group about checking compatibility. Please keep us posted. As cheap as they are, I'd love to have a spare afterburner compatible unit. |
Looking very likely that this IS AB compatible, as the 'controller' is just on/off and the analogue dial. On the AB page, I see clearly that the analogue one has a board that is compatible... Unless I have a unit that is too new that the AB site has not yet seen. Should I take the board out so as to post pictures of it? |
I'd recommend it. Its very easy to open up and take pics of the board. Plus it will be reassuring to know before you make the purchase.
But for what it's worth, your setup looks identical to what I bought. I'm 90% sure you're good but I'd take a peak of the board. Also I upgraded my power wires to 10awg.
_________________
Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bobbyblack
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4351
Location: United States, Iowa
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
Shots of the circuit board on mine.
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shagginwagon83
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 3800
Location: VA/TN
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
That looks compatible to me! I'm going to scoop another one up. Thanks for taking the time to do that
_________________
Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bobbyblack
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4351
Location: United States, Iowa
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
| shagginwagon83 wrote: |
| That looks compatible to me! I'm going to scoop another one up. Thanks for taking the time to do that |
Ray replied, yes, compatible (he said he's never seen a true 2K unit be incompatible) [maybe someone should see if 1 AB would work in parallel with 2 2k units, hint hint Brandon]
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15144
Location: Syracuse, NY
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
@ ~6,ooo BTUs, I'm not so sure I'm that excited for a 2kw unit.
but I live in New England and sleep in the upper bunk.
the propex 2800 is ~9ooo BTUs and it's at the edge of enough sometimes..
the 5KW units may be overkill, but they do go down low and slow so they don't overheat the space in mild nights.
IMO 2kw being "sufficient" is the same as saying a 1.9l WBX is "sufficient".
it is till it isn't.
| Quote: |
kWh to BTU conversion table
Energy (kWh) Energy (BTU(IT))
2 kWh 6824.28 BTU
3 kWh 10236.42 BTU
4 kWh 13648.57 BTU
5 kWh 17060.71 BTU |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Syncro Jael
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013
Posts: 2204
Location: Utah
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
| danfromsyr wrote: |
@ ~6,ooo BTUs, I'm not so sure I'm that excited for a 2kw unit.
but I live in New England and sleep in the upper bunk.
the propex 2800 is ~9ooo BTUs and it's at the edge of enough sometimes..
the 5KW units may be overkill, but they do go down low and slow so they don't overheat the space in mild nights.
IMO 2kw being "sufficient" is the same as saying a 1.9l WBX is "sufficient".
it is till it isn't.
| Quote: |
kWh to BTU conversion table
Energy (kWh) Energy (BTU(IT))
2 kWh 6824.28 BTU
3 kWh 10236.42 BTU
4 kWh 13648.57 BTU
5 kWh 17060.71 BTU |
|
I have been told that the 5 kWh units do not produce a true 17k BTU. But it does produce so much more heat, than we were used to, and with the fan speed of 4500-5200 rpm the heat gets pushed all around the interior of the space. It can easily keep up with below 0° weather. The HS2800 could not keep up and was hungry for propane and watts to run.
Bigger "is" better. 
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
| danfromsyr wrote: |
...I live in near New England... |
FIFY  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimf909
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7472
Location: WA/ID
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
| Syncro Jael wrote: |
It can easily keep up with below 0° weather. The HS2800 could not keep up and was hungry for propane and watts to run.
Bigger "is" better. |
This is a helpful thread. The above post is especially helpful in comparing a CDH to a Propex. These are the posts that are pushing me closer to replacing my Propex 2211 with a CDH.
| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| danfromsyr wrote: |
...I live in near New England... |
FIFY |
Yes, New England includes only six states.
_________________
- Jim
| Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
|
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
westyventures
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2004
Posts: 2306
Location: Oregon Outback
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
| HS2800 is tested at 10000 btu output and if that can't heat your Vanagon at 0, you either have a poor installation or crap for insulation. I spent many subzero nights in mine with a 2000, cycling on/off maintaining 65 degrees. 1.9 amps is not 'power hungry' either, LOL! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jan Steinman
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2022
Posts: 175
Location: Bellingham, WA, USA
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Help me decide what heater to get, propex, CDH, or other? |
|
|
I have the stock OEM gasoline "boost" heater, plumbed to the main fuel tank. It's okay. It's nice that it goes through the normal heater ductwork.
I'm considering a TDI conversion, which means the old heater is out, unless I keep a second tank for it.
I've read that most CDH installations are not underfloor, that people are afraid they won't withstand the road spray and subsequent corrosion.
Yet, I'm loath to give up one square inch of internal space!
Has anyone replaced the stock OEM gasoline or diesel heater with a CDH, in-place? What are your experiences? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
