Added Temperature Measurements for Diagnostic (or Curiosity)?

[SyncroHead]

A recent concern about coolant temperatures in my van got me to thinking about the prospect of installing some additional temperature measurements to monitor things more closely. Though this idea started with coolant temperatures, I'm now thinking of all sort of temperatures I'd be interested in seeing.

If there were a convenient way to monitor multiple additional temperature points (4, 6, 8 maybe ???) in and around your van, what would you want to see, and why?
What priority would each have if you couldn't have everything?

I've got my own list going, but want to see what all you Sambanistas might come up with.

Jim
_________________
"A Vanagon? It's not a car or a van. It's a hobby!"

Check out:
www.VANAVATION.com
www.SyncroSafari.org and
www.Vanagons.org

[4Gears4Tires]

I have 2 locations plumbed already. Going into the radiator and coming out of the radiator. Currently only the temp going into the radiator is hooked up, but the going out is all there. Just need to run the wire inside the cabin.

I think 3 locations, going in, going out, and at the thermostat (oem) sound good to me.
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'87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition

[Sodo]

Here's a temperature guage with 6 probes for $58
It will show the temps on a phone app too.
I don't know how you'd implement the sensors though.
Maybe epoxy them into 3/8NPT fittings etc but they'd be hangin' out there.
I wonder if you could extend the wire from the probe.

https://life.tenergy.com/solis-digital-thermometer-6-probes/
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[syncroserge]

As I am not a fan of the airplane cockpit look, and I don't trust the dash that much anymore
I went with this..
https://www.madmandevelopments.com/product/ems-3/

Not completely done in my van but I have installed one for a friend and I love it.
Monitoring with visual and audible alarms for 6 inputs with user set high and low parameters.
Works with VDO sensors and for coolant temp and level I have been able to use the signal right off the VW sensor.

[MarkWard]

In theory, engine coolant temp measured at the engine, is the best indicator of a functioning cooling system.

Radiators drop temperature way less than you might think. Maybe 10 degrees F idling per fan cycle.

Not sure why you'd want multiple coolant temp readings? A hand held infrared thermo gun is quick and painless.
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☮️

[Syncro Jael]

I do like gauges to watch the vitals of the van.

I still use the stock cooling temp gauge that the sending unit is located on the engine. I also have added another temp gauge to check coolant temps leaving the engine headed for the radiator. This gauge is at the inlet of the radiator.

Having both gauges lets me watch the function of the thermostat. I can see the engine warm up on the stock gauge then see the thermostat open and send hot coolant to the radiator. Once the cooling system is up to temperature, via the thermostat, I can then watch the coolant temps rise when working the engine. I also notice the difference when the A/C is on and the condenser is heated up. In the winter the thermostat opens and closes all the time. Also using the interior heater really does affect the cooling system temperatures.

Gauges are much better than as called "idiot lights".

Climbing hills I can see the hotter coolant headed for the radiator. Then watch the stock gauge start to climb as the engine is getting a workout. There is a pretty fair lag between the readings on the gauges.

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1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat)

[Gnarlodious]

Cheapest solution ever, here is what I did. All parts bought on eBay. Keywords to search for:

* NTC Thermistor Resistor Temperature Sensor
* MF52T 10K OHM ± 1% B: 3950K
* Magnetic Probe Temperature Sensor NTC Thermistor 10K
* Silicone thermal conductive adhesive glue Heat sink paste compound

All sensors are standard NTC 10k ohm resistance, you won’t be able to measure Bosch type sensors with this system. The magnetic sensor is convenient for engine block measurement.

I glued the flat sensors onto various critical spots, like the back of transmission above the main bearing. I used the connectors to facilitate removal and to be easily switch out sensors.

You can get 10k immersible threaded sensors if you want to drill & tap threads.

Many digital temperature displays have an upper limit of 167ºF, so watch out. You can use a thermostat if you want an alarm module or cooling system to kick on.
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Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit

[SyncroHead]

Thanks guys. You're awesome!

Who else has suggestion on what temperatures they might like to see?

Jim Davis
_________________
"A Vanagon? It's not a car or a van. It's a hobby!"

Check out:
www.VANAVATION.com
www.SyncroSafari.org and
www.Vanagons.org

[MarkWard]

I'd be interested in my transmission temps automatic or manual.
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[SyncroHead]

Ok here's my temperature wish list:

1. Coolant at radiator intake
2. Coolant at radiator exit
3. Transmission 1 (uncertain where)
4. Transmission 2 (uncertain where)
5. Outside air
6. Front fan/heater air exit
7. A/C air inlet
8. A/C air exit

Also, each temp would ideally have an adjustable alarm setpoint(s). Outside air for instance would alarm when it drops below about 35F for an "ice warning" like modern cars.

My idea would be a common display that would scroll through the temps and also allow you to pause and monitor a particular temperature as desired.

Jim Davis
_________________
"A Vanagon? It's not a car or a van. It's a hobby!"

Check out:
www.VANAVATION.com
www.SyncroSafari.org and
www.Vanagons.org

[SyncroHead]

We've started development of a temperature monitoring system by defining attributes. Here's what's on the list of characteristics:

1. Fairly small display, not taking over the dash

2. Monitor at least 6, but up to 8 temperatures

3. Would auto-scroll through temperatures unless paused, where it would show the temperature you’re interested in until un-paused

4. Would have alarm limits what would be indicated in the display if the temperature left the limits, possibly with an audible alarm also

5. For easy installation, some temps would not be super accurate, but be used as a relative measure of what’s normal or abnormal. Thinking of coolant temperatures here, where a sensor might be clamped on the outside it a hose or pipe.

6. Independent of the van’s other systems, needing only 12V power to operate.


Thoughts?

Jim Davis
_________________
"A Vanagon? It's not a car or a van. It's a hobby!"

Check out:
www.VANAVATION.com
www.SyncroSafari.org and
www.Vanagons.org

[Abscate]

Blue tooth the data to a phone app and skip all the display crap. Very few want to monitor it in a daily basis , it’s usually just the long trip where you get worried

This also keeps your eyes on the road not looking down at all these gauges under the dash, very bad practice.
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.ssS!

[4Gears4Tires]

Checking the gauges is no different from checking your rear view mirrors. A quick glance is all you need.
_________________
'87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition

[Zeitgeist 13]

Speaking of mirrors, the Gentex auto-dimming mirror installed on my van displays outside temps or compass. Also, my oil temp gauge has a toggle switch for checking both engine and trans temps.
_________________
Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?

[SyncroHead]

With some development completed, here's what iI can confirm we're on track for:

1. Small display, not taking over the dash - About 1.5" tall x 4" wide
Will be able to have named temperatures displayed in text. Will show 2 temperatures simultaneously. Construction will be rather generic, not pre-supposing a particular mounting location. Some placement examples include: on steering column upper cover, below the heater controls, on atop the ash tray.

2. Unit will be able to monitor 8 temperatures. With 2 temperatures displayed at once, the display will scroll through 4 screens.

3. Unit will auto-scroll through temperatures unless paused, where it will show the temperature you’re interested in until un-paused.

4. Will have alarm limits what would be indicated in the display if a temperature leaves the limits by changing the background lighting color to red. An audible alarm also provided with ability to silence it. This will include an ICE warning for low outside air temperature. Temperature limits are adjustable by the user.

5. For easy installation, some temps will not be super accurate, but be used as a relative measure of what’s "normal" vs. "abnormal". Such as coolant temperatures, where a sensor may be clamped on the outside of a hose or pipe, eliminating the introduction of new potential leak points.

6. The unit will be independent of the van’s other systems, needing only 12V power to operate.

7. Temperature sensor leads will be long enough to reach every useful place in the van.

Hope to have photos of prototype within a few weeks.

Jim Davis
_________________
"A Vanagon? It's not a car or a van. It's a hobby!"

Check out:
www.VANAVATION.com
www.SyncroSafari.org and
www.Vanagons.org

[Butcher]

With all this information, what are you going to do with it? Even if you had a problem, no one else could really help you since they do not have the same sensors/locations to give you some comparable values.

Although it may be legal in your area, but this amount of information would clearly be a distracted driver issue.

[syncroserge]

[SyncroHead]

I know many (but not all) Vanagon owners will understand how these temperatures relate to proper function of their van. I sort of skipped past some of the reasoning about how these temperatures can be helpful in the proper care and operation of our beloved vans, but maybe discussing this a bit will demonstrate that these are not merely numbers to distract a driver.

I had a 2004 beetle that didn't even have a temperature gauge - just a light. Really didn't care for that, but made for a "minimalist" driver view and drivers weren't "distracted" by lookin at even single temperature gauge.

Ron Chandler (Syncro Jael) has learned and diagnosed a lot from monitoring his van more closely. I know that Bob Stevens (mtbiker62) has been able to understand what conditions stress his Syncro transmission and cause unusual heating.

Would you like to know if your transmission is heating up much more than usual? If on your last 6 trips it was running at X temperature and now it's running at X +20 degrees and climbing, would you like to know that? I would.

If the inlet / outlet to your radiator usually shows cooling of Y degrees and now the inlet and outlet are nearly the same, would you like to know? I would.

If the heater usually outs out Z temperature are and now it's much cooler than usual, what might that tell you?

Would you like to have an ICE temperature alert to warn you of black ice potential?

I see the usefulness to diagnose the potential for abnormal transmission wear, heating, and potential bearing failure. I know that if the inlet/outlet temperatures of the radiator are moving closer together, it might indicate low / reduced flow or effectiveness of the radiator. I know that it the heater is no longer putting out hot enough air, there may be a problem at the thermostat. I know if I get a freezing temperature alert for outside air, I need to be particularly cautions while driving, especially on bridges.

Having this information may not be valued by some, but I think there are enough that see it's usefulness. I see the application potential for motorhomes, and in the marine environment also. Who know, maybe I have the only one?

Jim
_________________
"A Vanagon? It's not a car or a van. It's a hobby!"

Check out:
www.VANAVATION.com
www.SyncroSafari.org and
www.Vanagons.org

[izzydog]

Gentlemen... this is simple. Convert your current engine to one with OBDII and you can have one of these on your dash...

[syncroserge]

Well, if me and Claire ever make it to Safari again, I would love to see those numbers