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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:22 am    Post subject: Preventing floor pan rust Reply with quote

I'm in the process of redoing a 69 Ghia. I've got the body off and have stripped the "tar board" off of the floors. The newer tar board is actually a layer of white styrofoam sandwiched between to tar paper products and then glued to the floor.

Water gets under this product, sits in the lower grooves and rusts away the metal.

I originally planned to install a similar product to minimize road noise but am not giving serious 2nd thoughts to doing so after seeing the rust they cause.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I used to work for Mercedes Benz and remember their floor mat system. As a matter of fact I've got a 1986 560SL here right now so I went and opened up the door and lifted up the floor mat. As I remembered a far far superior system greeted me. The carpet is bonded to a plastic "bag" containing the sound deadener material. If you get moisture in the car, just lift out the mats and dry it up.

In the photo the black (looks blue) is a removable floor mat, the beige is the factory mat in the car, the Black plastic is the sound deadener and the red is the metal floor pan. The Bosch Distributor Cap box holds it all up so I could take a picture! (BTW for those who complain about classic VW parts prices.....that's a $100 + cap in that box!!)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So, anyone with ideas or the technology to make this for Bugs and Ghias??? It looks like a much better system!

Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Obvious Cool says the simple, uncomplicated
solution is to put down as much insulation and carpet
that you want. You can encapsulate the bottom layers in plastic
or whatever, but never glue anything to
Ghia floor pans.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

your floors look good. You should see mine Neutral
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Masterseries should be plenty to combat future rust.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently cleaned up my pans, I removed all the old paint and tar board and got the pans back to bare metal.

The next proccess I used a UK product called Bilt hamber Electrox which is a 93% zinc primer used on oil rigs amongst other things ( the process is basically cold galvernising), more details here:

http://www.bilthamber.com/electrox.html

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


After 2 coats I applied a top coat, I used POR15 as I had a spare tin which had no reation with the BH electrox:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The next stage, soundproofing - I'm going to use a heavy duty laminate floor underlay with a moisture barrier built in ( these are also available as a self adhesive). Another cheap alternative is roofing flashband
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timely topic - I too am reviewing my options on what to use as a tar board replacement in my '71 coupe.

Ripped out my tar boards last month, luckily, apart from some surface rust in the back, the floor was still solid. I used two coats of POR15 as a sealer.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ghiaddict wrote:
Captain Obvious Cool says the simple, uncomplicated
solution is to put down as much insulation and carpet
that you want. You can encapsulate the bottom layers in plastic
or whatever, but never glue anything to
Ghia floor pans.


Thanks for the thought Captain Obvious!!
Sadly, if that thought pattern is followed you may end up with a GIANT sponge holding moisture against your floor boards 24 hrs a day, 365 days a week. Hmmmmmm that's what the glued down factory Tar Boards did!!

The plastic bag idea could work but it would have to be a shrink fit unit, almost like boat wrap.

No, there is a better answer, something that has sound deadening properties, removable, water proof or resistant and not too thick.

The one post about using floor underlayment may be on to something. It is a dense closed cell foam for use under floating floor systems. It is a tad thin but maybe multiple layers adhered together or a similar thicker product may be produced for another use.
I'd seriously consider, and experiment with, bonding multiple layers together and then also to the carpet back to make a setup similar to the photo of the Mercedes unit that I posted. The Mercedes setup is the best I've ever seen on any car and is my goal.
I even thought of the foam filled bags that are filled with the item in the box and conform to the object for secure shipping of products but think the foam is too "crunchy" and it would be difficult to prevent it from expanding upwards. Plus the cost of the dispensing equipment!

Dave
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

8URN,

What is this you are putting on the high spots???

BTW, someone stole your pedals!!!!! Wink

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using a high zinc primer against the cleaned metal of the pan is a must. Followed with paint, and a thin layer of roofing tar will be the best way to combat the water that gets in. Then one can reuse the tar boards with a lot less worry.

Absolute need to seal the water from getting inside in the first place!! Check out the "Look, Listen, Do It Better" manuals through the "Technical" button on the upper right of this website. Also read the water sealing sections in the "Damage Numbers" manual in the "Obsolete Documents" Website.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out www.soundown.com particularly the marine mat'l which should certainly be water resistant.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm...Looking at 8URN's filler strips, a possible solution to allow easy install & removal of the underlay would be to purchase some flexible magnet sheeting and cut strips to fill in the recessed areas on the floor. Apply glue to the strips and lay down the pre-cut sound deadener sheet. The strips would also serve to eliminate any ripple effect...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
8URN,

What is this you are putting on the high spots???

BTW, someone stole your pedals!!!!! Wink

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Its just some self adhesive sound deadening material I picked up cheap from ebay, it came in sheet form and I just cut 10mm strips to fit - not entirely my idea I copied it from:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=373867&start=40

Another advantage of using the zinc primer is that it does have soundproofing qualities.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok,

I was a Lowe's today for another purpose but started wandering and looking for a product for removable water proof floor deadening.

I stumbled upon this item for $13 and change...... You will need two packages to do an entire Ghia.
The label is tough to read but one line says "waterpproof and light weight"

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It is about 1/2" thick and wide enough to do a floor pan without a seam. It is too short but they interlock to become longer.
First I cut off two sides of the interlock fingers to give a solid edge against the hump and against the seat.
I pulled a mat out of one of my ghias and traced around it.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


After tracing it I cut inside of the line about 1/4" or so. It is easy to cut with heavy shears. I added a piece on the top and cut that also. Here is the mat and the insulator side by side. They have both been sprayed with a liberal coat of Contact Cement and are drying. (although the first photo shows the rough side up towards the carpet I thought better of it and made another one with the rough side down against the metal. The smooth side I sprayed with the contact cement to go against the back of the carpet, I think it will be better.) I also glued the interlock fingers together to make a single mat.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I then left the carpet on the floor upside down and carefully located the insulator over it leaving a minor overhang all the way around. If you need to, I'd suggest you put some wooden dowels on top of the carpet first to prevent accidental contact and then pull them out one by one once you are in the proper position. Once the two surfaces touch each other, they ARE stuck together!!!
I then walked on it, jumped on it and in general just mashed them together.....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I ended up with a product fairly similar to my Mercedes Photo, has bend and give to it and guess what? IT FITS IN THE CAR LIKE A GLOVE!!! It was too dark and raining to take a photo but maybe tomorrow!!

I am happy with it and think that I'll pursue it both front and rear. I'll need to put a separate piece under the back seat for the factory tar board ran as one piece from under the seat to the back of the pan. I may not even need it back there for the seat hopefully will muffle the noise. This area is also a low spot in the pan and water comes here. Without the pad it will be easy to keep an eye on it.

I am still open to all and any ideas that people may have. This is one solution that looks very promising to me.

One note, I still have mat buttons on my floor pans, I'll need to cut a hole for them BEFORE I glue everything together in the final assembly.

Dave

PS The carpet is old and worn, simply a test subject for this project.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used a roll of quiet walk padding made to lay under floating wood floors. It's not the foam stuff but more of a felt like material. It is roughly 1/8" thick and has thin blue vapor barrier on one side. I doubled it up and layed one sheet with the plastic facing the pans and the top sheet with the plastic facing the carpet. A little spray adhesive inbetween to hold them together. I did glue it down on the tunnel and sides but will let gravity keep the floor pan padding in place. BTW -That foam padding looks like a great idea. I was gonna do that too till I came across this:
http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com/hardwoodinstaller/reviews-flooring-underlayment.htm . It's super easy to cut and once you have it in shape you can trace it onto a second sheet to double the thickness.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

72Ghia wrote:
I used a roll of quiet walk padding made to lay under floating wood floors. It's not the foam stuff but more of a felt like material. It is roughly 1/8" thick and has thin blue vapor barrier on one side. I doubled it up and layed one sheet with the plastic facing the pans and the top sheet with the plastic facing the carpet. A little spray adhesive inbetween to hold them together. I did glue it down on the tunnel and sides but will let gravity keep the floor pan padding in place. BTW -That foam padding looks like a great idea. I was gonna do that too till I came across this:
http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com/hardwoodinstaller/reviews-flooring-underlayment.htm . It's super easy to cut and once you have it in shape you can trace it onto a second sheet to double the thickness.


Funny!! I looked at that stuff as well but it was thinner than I desired, didn't think of doubling it over and sealing the felt inside!

I also was seeking something that would not absorb moisture. I'm a tad paranoid about it, I'll be the first to admit it! The only reason I worry about the moisture is that this coupe will soon become a convertible once the body transplant begins.
I've owned many verts in my life, one thing I know for sure..... Rain happens!!!
I once had a Miata that had so much water on the floor that if you braked hard, you should lift your feet for the wave was coming forward!! (I fixed it, Mazda's have bad PO's just like old VW's do!!)

My current 70 Ghia Vert that I'll be using the body for the transplant has had at least 3 floor pans in it. The factory, the badly installed replacement where they only cut out the foot wells and didn't bother doing it along the Spine, and finally the 1/4" sheets of rusty metal that currently keep you off of the asphalt!!
Once the transplant is done, that's it, no more pans in MY lifetime if I have anything to do with it!!!

Thanks for your input! BTW your rebuild thread is one of two that motivated me to finally begin this project! I fully expect the body to reveal a lot more rust than I've convinced myself is there.

Dave
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad the thread helped with motivation. I know it can be tough the get the ball rolling especially with so many other obligations to deal with.
I forgot to mention that there is like 3 layers of that stuff over the engine firewall to hopeully quiet things down. The floor paddings are separate from the tunnel therefore removable. I was thinking of using a few strips of velcro to keep them in place but once layed in there they dont go anywhere.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been restoring (well, returning to service) a 70 bug that had some of that same kind of tar paper/foam sandwich stuff in it. The pans on this particular bug had been replaced and where the tar was touching the floor, it was pristine metal, no rust at all...though as you stated, underneath was starting to show some rust.
Seems to me that the tar was a perfect rust preventer. Now perhaps this is too low-brow for ghias, but I picked up some of that roll on roofing from Home Depot...basically a 4" adhesive tar with a foil backing, I rolled it into all the grooves of the floor pan, it's helped deaden the noise and I'm hoping will prevent any rust from forming as well. Oh, there's also a coat of Rust Bullet on the floors underneath the roofing stuff. Not sure if I'm going to do this with my 67 ghia that's waiting for new floor pans..it will certainly get a good coat of either rust bullet or por 15.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

72Ghia wrote:
Glad the thread helped with motivation. I know it can be tough the get the ball rolling especially with so many other obligations to deal with.
I forgot to mention that there is like 3 layers of that stuff over the engine firewall to hopeully quiet things down. The floor paddings are separate from the tunnel therefore removable. I was thinking of using a few strips of velcro to keep them in place but once layed in there they dont go anywhere.


I haven't any fear of glued on noise padding on other surfaces, it is only the floor pan that freaks me out!! I've been thinking of the Dynamat product or a similar item for these areas.

jwold, my concern is that moisture finds it way under almost anything you put down on a horizontal surface, if you can't remove it to check and dry under it, you will have rust no matter what paint or sealer you put on the metal. It is simply a matter of time. Even if rust doesn't happen quickly, mold and mildew along with the associated smells will soon appear.

Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Ok,

I was a Lowe's today for another purpose but started wandering and looking for a product for removable water proof floor deadening.

I stumbled upon this item for $13 and change...... You will need two packages to do an entire Ghia.
The label is tough to read but one line says "waterpproof and light weight"

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It is about 1/2" thick and wide enough to do a floor pan without a seam. It is too short but they interlock to become longer.
First I cut off two sides of the interlock fingers to give a solid edge against the hump and against the seat.
I pulled a mat out of one of my ghias and traced around it.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


After tracing it I cut inside of the line about 1/4" or so. It is easy to cut with heavy shears. I added a piece on the top and cut that also. Here is the mat and the insulator side by side. They have both been sprayed with a liberal coat of Contact Cement and are drying. (although the first photo shows the rough side up towards the carpet I thought better of it and made another one with the rough side down against the metal. The smooth side I sprayed with the contact cement to go against the back of the carpet, I think it will be better.) I also glued the interlock fingers together to make a single mat.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I then left the carpet on the floor upside down and carefully located the insulator over it leaving a minor overhang all the way around. If you need to, I'd suggest you put some wooden dowels on top of the carpet first to prevent accidental contact and then pull them out one by one once you are in the proper position. Once the two surfaces touch each other, they ARE stuck together!!!
I then walked on it, jumped on it and in general just mashed them together.....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I ended up with a product fairly similar to my Mercedes Photo, has bend and give to it and guess what? IT FITS IN THE CAR LIKE A GLOVE!!! It was too dark and raining to take a photo but maybe tomorrow!!

I am happy with it and think that I'll pursue it both front and rear. I'll need to put a separate piece under the back seat for the factory tar board ran as one piece from under the seat to the back of the pan. I may not even need it back there for the seat hopefully will muffle the noise. This area is also a low spot in the pan and water comes here. Without the pad it will be easy to keep an eye on it.

I am still open to all and any ideas that people may have. This is one solution that looks very promising to me.

One note, I still have mat buttons on my floor pans, I'll need to cut a hole for them BEFORE I glue everything together in the final assembly.

Dave

PS The carpet is old and worn, simply a test subject for this project.


I think you are on to something there although it would be nice if you had a way to lift the mat from the pan.

I recently acquired a Thing. They make a floor mat with a ribbed back. Its probably not really suitable for a Ghia but something like this for underlayment might be useful as it would let the underlayment "breath".

I think the Ghia pans are basically the same shape as a Thing.

http://www.thethingshop.com/FLOOR-MATS-WITH-HOLES/productinfo/181+MH/
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok,sun is out, 70 degrees so I uncovered the 70 and slipped in the mat I made.

(yes, that is mouse shreddings all over the place! This is their own personal rolling condo)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And lifting up the edge as I did in the Merdedes.......

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is a SWEET FIT!!!! I like!! $26 to do the whole car is also a bargain. There are little spots that should have the padding as well, next to the seat along the door is the most notable one.


Dave
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