Walt's 1973 412 Barn Find

[Abelclasico]

[Abelclasico]

Thanks Ray for the advise. I don't have a problem going back and removing all the primer from that area. I want to do it right. I'll do that over the weekend.

A few weeks ago, I bought Oxygone which I heard is similar to Ospho. What do you think?

Also, regarding the Marterseries, is Mastercoat the same product? From the description, I would assume so,
cheers,
Abel

[raygreenwood]

[Abelclasico]

Thanks Ray for the confirmation. I found that Masterseries is a bit cheaper somewhere else so I'll go ahead and purchase a quart.

I am just learning to weld, so any unnecessary welds, I would rather avoid them.
I might actually post these questions on the thread I opened so that I do not hijack anybody's posts, sorry,
cheers,
Abel

[raygreenwood]

[NurseryWalt]

Some more progress made yesterday.

My first objective was to remove the two center seatbelt posts along with the electrical wires. Photographed and labelled all connections.

But then I got sidetracked by a red wire which ran from the dash to the engine compartment. Unfortunately, both ends were free, so no idea what it was for. There were two extra holes in the dash so it could be an accessory like a back up light or an engine sensor light.

Then I started working on the backseat area with the heavy felt and also the molded plastic piece under the rear window. Very brittle, slightly misshaped, but mostly there.

After removing the molded plastic cover, I discovered a black plastic sheet tucked in under the window seal and the heavy felt mat. The felt was sopping wet.

Naturally, I expected the worst when I removed everything, but to my surprise, it didn't look too bad at all. There still could be rust under the window, but that will have to wait a while longer.

My next focus will be the tar boards on the main floor. Any advice on how to remove them? I probably should place a gag in my mouth to cut down on the confessional time needed on Sunday!

Walter
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'66 Bug with collector plate and '73 412 project

[raygreenwood]

OK...thats fascia under the bottom edge of the rear windshield is carboard...and yours is in as rough of shape as anyones's.

I have one that could be considered pristine. Its has small damage.....very brittle...that I can glue together. I have finally figured out how to do a reproduction from a plaster mold made from it. One that looks decent, is shaped right and lasts.

It will get about 3-4 coats of urethane....dams at each end....and plugs where the slots are. Then into the mold. I am molding the outside only.

Then it gets a thick layer of polypropylene truck bed liner spray...maybe 1/16". Then dusted with chopped fiberglass when its half dry. Then lay metal washers inset into the screw holes. Then spray coat #2....fiberglass dusting...then coat #3.
It should be right at 3/16" by this point. Let dry...demold.

Then a single uniform coat of bed liner to the outside to make uniform texture. Then trim the slots and ends. Depending on the bed liner is may be paintable with Plasticoat and primer. I hope to get the mold done before Christmas. Several people including me...are waiting on this part. Its an important part because it what guides the rear glass defrost air.

Ok.... because water that leaks in...runs down the back slant and under the tar boards....it has a tendency to rust through in the areas under the red arrow....right above the rear axle beam. You an see it from the outside. Its mostly under the rear seat. What also does not help...is leaking through at the sheet metal screws in the pictures.

The tar boards. I am not far from doing those on mine. It will be a mess. From what I have seen others do....a combination of air chisel....a wide chisel with a hand protector and a 3 lb sledge....and/or....one of those spade like tools for removing floor tiles.

Trace them on pattern paper first. Ray

[NurseryWalt]

Hello Ray. Put me down for one of those back fascias. Sounds like you've given this a fair bit of thought. I don't know how we can thank you for all your timely information. Hopefully when it comes time to ship, the US/Canada border will be open. I do have a US shipping address which is useless at this moment. But there are at least two other options as well.

Regarding the tar boards, thanks for the reminder to make a pattern first. I was ready to start hacking away. Good save!

Cheers,
Walter
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'66 Bug with collector plate and '73 412 project

[raygreenwood]

[NurseryWalt]

As a friend of mine once said, "There is truth in all jest!" Ray, I see you have dealt with the Canadian Postal System.
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'66 Bug with collector plate and '73 412 project

[raygreenwood]

[NurseryWalt]

Yesterday was Tar Board Saturday. Here is how it went.

First I made a pattern of the tar boards thanks to Ray's reminder.

I was able to remove the top layer in one piece on two of the tar boards and thought, "This is going to be easy!"

My tools of the day were a reciprocating saw with a 2" scraper blade and a mini pry bar. The only drawback of the saw was it was too big to get into the tight corners.

Rear floors seem to be in good shape.

Front drivers side has a bit more work under the brake pedal.

My biggest question, "Why use tar boards in the first place?" Was it economics, sound absorption, water proofing? I'm thinking why not use a nice thick rubber mat like they use for horse stalls.

Walter
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'66 Bug with collector plate and '73 412 project

[raygreenwood]

Tar boards.....were all of the above.

It is sound deadener. And...it cuts down on flexing and rattling of the floor boards as the car twists and goes over pavement. If you have ever driven in a car that has them removed....you will see how loud it is.

Also...there was going to be grooves or pressed in stiffening features in the floor bards no matter what. The tar boards make teh floor level so the carpet is flat.

And the stiffening grooves were made in diagonal pattern to drain spilled water to the edges.

Why use tar boards and not rubber? Well....unlike virtually ANY kind of rubber...the tar boards, which are asphalt impregnated (probably pressure or vacuum)....are cheap...will never rot, never shrink etc.

If you have priced serious smooth rubber that thick by the foot...thats an expensive undertaking. It needs to not get stiff and shrink with age and heat...and not outgas rubber smell on a hot day....and you need to be able to glue it down.

Ray

[NurseryWalt]

Where does one find tar boards for the 412?

Walter
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'66 Bug with collector plate and '73 412 project

[raygreenwood]

[NurseryWalt]

Saturday's progress:
I finished removing the tar boards under the brake pedal.

Then on to easier things like removing the door panels. Driver's door slightly warped in the corner.

Plastic sheet in driver's door.

Right rear door was the worst panel. Made sense when I noticed the window was down 1/4".

Back side of right rear door panel. (What's left of it!)

So the question of the day is why weren't these hardboard panels waterproofed by painting?
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'66 Bug with collector plate and '73 412 project

[raygreenwood]

Because ...they generally did not NEED to be waterproofed because there was a sheet of plastic vapor barrier between the panels and the door opening.


If this sheet of plastic is gone, ripped or pulled loose...it means someone got inside the door to repair something and did not replace incorrectly. ...which is about 99% of the time.

This is the third question about door panels in about two weeks......

Yes....there are ways to remake the panels out of masonite or various types of particle board of the same thickness. Thats not the hard part.

Yes...there are a couple of great and easy methods to get factory-esque panel coverings at home.....with the same embossed markings and lines....especially if you are wanting something other than vinyl...like a cloth, tweed or hounds tooth covering.

Both of the above techniques combined can be used to re-stretch your existing vinyl over...if it is not cracked, brittle or shrunken up.

Beyond that....new vinyl....with heat embossed lines on new roll vinyl....sure...it can be done.....by hand....with a hand held heat embossing tool and some guides once you have a new panel and underlayer made.

I just dont have time to get directly into the how to's for these at the moment. Ray

[Lars S]

Yes, that sheet of plastic vapor barrier between the panels and the door opening is more important than one could think.
When driving in cold weather, it protects warm (humid) air in the cabin from getting into the colder door area where it would condensate (due to the lower temperature inside the door) and make the door boards humid and also start the rust process in the door bottom.

Therefore its a good idea to replace the vapor barrier with a new good quality plastic (long life) one and make it as tight as possible around door handles etc.


//Lars S
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Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold

[raygreenwood]

To spend a couple of minutes on this to get the conversation rolling.....about 15 years ago...one of the magazines had an article from an upholstery shop about making door panels with embossing's from scratch. (might have been Sew Fine or TMI).

The just was.....take a replacement particle board panel. You can buy these for beetles pre-made....or you can make one for type 4 or whatever....with cheap hobby, leather punches for the attachment prong holes and the window winder holes. Cutting the perimeter and teh rounded corners and the door latch hole is just an exercise in careful cutting with a sharp hobby knife........so as I noted....making the particle board replacement is pretty simple.

Whey they did then.....was to make a drawing of the pattern of embossed lines they wanted on the panel. They could be stock or custom.

Then they printed that pattern out on paper. If you do not have a wide printer...you can do it at Kinko's or any blueprint or copy shop for a few dollars. Or if you have a drafting table like I do...you can draw it out.

Either way you have a pattern full size.

Then....since there is a slight padding on the backside of the original vinyl.....they simply got a roll of 1/16" smooth packing foam.

You spray the panel with a light adhesive...a "repositionable" adhesive. Then you roll teh foam sheet out carefully with no bubbles. Trim the perimeter to shape and trim it in from the edge about 1/16".

Then lay your pattern over the top and tape it down. With a long straight edge and razer sharp blade.....cut the pattern......then pull out the strips.

Yu have your embossing pattern cut in the foam and you can see particle board everywhere an embossing is supposed to be.

This shop was using hounds tooth door covering fabric.....but you could probably do this with light to medium weight vinyl as well.

They then sprayed high tack adhesive.....smoothly...over the whole surface...making sure to get the adhesive down in the embossing grooves.

Then spray the back of the new vinyl or cloth sheet. Let them tack up.

Then start the vinyl on one end...contact it. And....feed it through an embossing or letter press roller....with a sheet of foam rubber on top. It will squeeze the cloth or vinyl down into the grooves and make almost factory perfect embossing because it will adhere itself to the particle board.

So...you need to find someone local with a table top embossing or die-cutting roller. Unless you live in the smallest town...I guarantee that there is either a cardboard box company, an arts co-op that does print making or a die cutting/print house that has a simple roller system like this that could do this for you.

With cloth...you could do this wit ha hand roller with some work.

Or.....same pattern system and cut foam inner layer.... .....you could use a kit similar to this

https://www.amazon.com/Burning-Control-Wood-Burning-Woodburning-Soldering/dp/B07H3QR9R7

I have one that is not actually slated for "wood burning". Its really a soldering and sealing iron. Its pencil shaped like this one...has about a dozen tips....including a hot exacto knife tip.....and has a really effective rheostat control in the cord...that runs from about 150 F to about 600F.

It was about $30. I think I got it at Hobby Lobby. Its controlled enough that with the right shaped tip.....you could heat emboss door vinyl into a pattern. Ray

[NurseryWalt]

Thanks for your great ideas, Ray. I was wondering how to replicated the embossed panels, and you answered before I asked!
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'66 Bug with collector plate and '73 412 project