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Alaninin
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2023
Posts: 19
Location: Indiana
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 Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 5:50 pm Post subject: What is this? |
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What is this picture above of? And why would it be disconnected?
What would all these wires be for. Looks like an added fuse under car. Found this today and trying to get everything working how it should and reversing some of the bad repairs. But need more information.
What is everyone using to connect this together?
Thank you for any help,
Alan |
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tmitoraj
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:19 am Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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| The top picture is the MAP sensor for the fuel injection system. If you have not already, click on the technical tab on the bar at the top of the page, scroll down to technical manuals, and download the Henry Elfrink Fuel injection book. It will answer a lot of your questions. It did mine!! |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2024 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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| Must run like crap with that hose disconnected and blocked off! |
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Alaninin
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2023
Posts: 19
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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I only drove it about 20 miles but seem to run okay. Hope it runs better once I reconnect it.
I did smell fumes when I drove it. This might explain it.
Thank you for your help. Any ideas on the second picture under the car on passengers side? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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| Alaninin wrote: |
I only drove it about 20 miles but seem to run okay. Hope it runs better once I reconnect it.
I did smell fumes when I drove it. This might explain it.
Thank you for your help. Any ideas on the second picture under the car on passengers side? |
I will give a complete answer in the morning.
If it is running.....ok.....(not really but the car is new to you)....with the MPS disconnected....it will usually not run at all if you connect it and it is working.
That part is the primary load sensor for the fuel injection. It decides how much fuel you get based on vacuum load as you throttle opens and closes. It is responsible for about 80% of all enrichment decisions.
Notice that the wires are still plugged into it. This means it is operating. But...with the vacuum hose unplugged....it "thinks" you thrttle is wide open and it is giving 100% enrichment all the time.
The only reason it CAN still run and not flood out is because the previous owner has either tuned the fuel pressure Waaaay down...or has tuned the main enrichment armature inside the MPS waaaaaay down.
More complete answer on all your pics in the am. Ray |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 9:56 am Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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So....
First, what year is your car? We know its a wagon from the picture of the MPS but what year and is it 411 or 412?
And.....in this picture:
I am assuming this is under the dash and the master cylinder is in the lower left corner and the corrugated hose to the right is from the blower right?
Is this is correct...the black and yellow dashed wire goes to "D" on the steering column for trhe ignition and goes to a 16 amp fuse and then feeds directly to the headlight switch.
You need to take the duct tape and zip tie off of whatever is going on in the center of the picture and figure out what stupidity the previous owner inflicted on whatever that is.
The yellow wire with the 15 amp fuse...I have no idea. You need to follow that and see what is at both ends. There are a couple of possibilities as to why someone added a 15 amp fuze into thee particular wires but I will wait on that.
The last picture you posted you can see the hose and hose clamp right off to the left. The original was a corrugated plastic hose with a cuff on the end and a simple hose clamp. Over time those get trashed. The previous owner of this car was using a fabric type duct hose with the spiral wire core.
You need measure that chimney sticking ot of the sheet metal and then look for the corrugated aluminum duct hose with the black or dark green paper on the outside. Check the usual suspects like bus depot, CIP-1 etc. Let us know if you cannot find it.
Ray |
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vw81jetta
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2003
Posts: 117
Location: Toledo , ohio
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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| Alaninin wrote: |
I only drove it about 20 miles but seem to run okay. Hope it runs better once I reconnect it.
I did smell fumes when I drove it. This might explain it.
Thank you for your help. Any ideas on the second picture under the car on passengers side? |
Hello from Ohio ! i see we are neighbors ( states lol ) I have to ask , i noticed in your photo gallery your 411 is a blue wagon , was it by chance on bring a trailer recently ??
_________________
~Jay
68 dunebuggy ,72 411, 75 Westfalia, 85 Cabriolet , 99 new beetle,
Greater Toledo Volkswagen Club Staff |
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Alaninin
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2023
Posts: 19
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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Thank you Ray for your help again. I have added more photos of the wires under the car to give you an idea where they are. I have not had a chance to work on the car this week but plan to trace the wires down this weekend. I will let you know.
VW 81 Jetta,
Yes, it was on bring a trailer. I am not the winning bidder but bought it from her after she found out it was not as perfect as advertised. As you see trying to get it running like it should and fixing a lot of electrical issues. So far I have had fun figuring it out with the help of Ray and others on the forum.
If anyone knows any more history on the car it would be interesting to know more about it previous life. From what I see it sat it a garage for a long time untouched.
Thank you all,
Alan |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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Ok, so right hand side down by the transmission. You need to unwrp that bundle of gray duct tape with the zip tie.
The black and yellow is not on the normal wiring diagram from that end of the car. But....I am betting that this is hacked into the gasoline furnace heater system. I am betting the 15 amp fuse is connected to the high limit switch. Bad news. You do not hack the heater system as it will burn you down.
I need to look at the heater wiring diagram to seeif a black and yellow is in there.
Ray |
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vw81jetta
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2003
Posts: 117
Location: Toledo , ohio
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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[quote
VW 81 Jetta,
Yes, it was on bring a trailer. I am not the winning bidder but bought it from her after she found out it was not as perfect as advertised. As you see trying to get it running like it should and fixing a lot of electrical issues. So far I have had fun figuring it out with the help of Ray and others on the forum.
If anyone knows any more history on the car it would be interesting to know more about it previous life. From what I see it sat it a garage for a long time untouched.
Thank you all,
Alan[/quote]
Ray is very knowledgeable with the type 4s  . hopefully oyu can get it straightened out soon ,
Ya only rust i recall seeing was in the battery tray which is fixable , its funny I was actually bidding on this one I stopped at the 7100$ mark . Ive wanted a wagon for a while , settled on a 4 dr that was local to me but still keeping an eye out for a wagon , 
_________________
~Jay
68 dunebuggy ,72 411, 75 Westfalia, 85 Cabriolet , 99 new beetle,
Greater Toledo Volkswagen Club Staff |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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| Alaninin wrote: |
What is this picture above of? And why would it be disconnected?
What would all these wires be for. Looks like an added fuse under car. Found this today and trying to get everything working how it should and reversing some of the bad repairs. But need more information.
What is everyone using to connect this together?
Thank you for any help,
Alan |
Alan,
It is obvious that someone has tried to bypass components in an effort to try and make this car run... they were not very knowlegeable and just creating more problems.
The first photo is of your MPS Sensor that is disconnected and improperly plugged. Bad news as Ray and others have suggested. I can also tell from the condition of the MPS sensor that it has been taken apart. Now present in holding the body halves together are screws. These sensors came from the factory with rivets that were pretty much flush with the body. This is one of the "hearts" of this D Jet injection and the engine will not run properly without it adjusted correctly and hooked up. I was able to rebuild my MPS sensor with a kit from Tangerine Racing and it works! One of the first tests I would perform is a vacuum test. The sensor has to hold a certain amount of vacuum for a period of time. Mine did not but I was able to fix it with a new diaphragm from Tangerine Racing. They are fixable. You need to study about this and it takes time and patience to set up.
Do you know for sure that your gas heater is installed? It is hard to tell from the photos, but it looks like it might be...I see part of a large hose and there are 4 large ones that connect to the heater body. Many of these gas heaters were either ripped out or just disconnected over time. If it is still there and wired incorrectly you will probably burn up the wagon as Ray has already warned. All the wiring, sensors and connections for the heater are on the driver's side. The photos I see seem to show the passenger side where the starter and related wires live. They don't look like heater wires.
You mentioned oil smells while driving. Could come from many sources. The one photo shows an open connector in the engine bay. This is supposed to be connected to your heater blower motor which lives in the left rear corner on the driver's side engine bay, with 2 hoses, one long and one short one. There are 2 of these connections in the bay and should not be open. These lead to the heater boxes and in turn connects to the gas heater which directs the heated air forward to the passenger comp. Oil smells can travel through these openings. Other sources of oil smells could be leaking heater boxes and leaking valve cover gaskets. There are other sources of course...
One other thing. Looks like I see an A/C hose. Does this car have A/C?
Bill |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2024 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
| Alaninin wrote: |
What is this picture above of? And why would it be disconnected?
What would all these wires be for. Looks like an added fuse under car. Found this today and trying to get everything working how it should and reversing some of the bad repairs. But need more information.
What is everyone using to connect this together?
Thank you for any help,
Alan |
Alan,
It is obvious that someone has tried to bypass components in an effort to try and make this car run... they were not very knowlegeable and just creating more problems.
The first photo is of your MPS Sensor that is disconnected and improperly plugged. Bad news as Ray and others have suggested. I can also tell from the condition of the MPS sensor that it has been taken apart. Now present in holding the body halves together are screws. These sensors came from the factory with rivets that were pretty much flush with the body. This is one of the "hearts" of this D Jet injection and the engine will not run properly without it adjusted correctly and hooked up. I was able to rebuild my MPS sensor with a kit from Tangerine Racing and it works! One of the first tests I would perform is a vacuum test. The sensor has to hold a certain amount of vacuum for a period of time. Mine did not but I was able to fix it with a new diaphragm from Tangerine Racing. They are fixable. You need to study about this and it takes time and patience to set up.
Do you know for sure that your gas heater is installed? It is hard to tell from the photos, but it looks like it might be...I see part of a large hose and there are 4 large ones that connect to the heater body. Many of these gas heaters were either ripped out or just disconnected over time. If it is still there and wired incorrectly you will probably burn up the wagon as Ray has already warned. All the wiring, sensors and connections for the heater are on the driver's side. The photos I see seem to show the passenger side where the starter and related wires live. They don't look like heater wires.
You mentioned oil smells while driving. Could come from many sources. The one photo shows an open connector in the engine bay. This is supposed to be connected to your heater blower motor which lives in the left rear corner on the driver's side engine bay, with 2 hoses, one long and one short one. There are 2 of these connections in the bay and should not be open. These lead to the heater boxes and in turn connects to the gas heater which directs the heated air forward to the passenger comp. Oil smells can travel through these openings. Other sources of oil smells could be leaking heater boxes and leaking valve cover gaskets. There are other sources of course...
One other thing. Looks like I see an A/C hose. Does this car have A/C?
Bill |
I agree with everything you said...but as usual there is always something new or different!
His MPS does have the correct screws. Not all of them were riveted.
I never have been able to find out if it was a specific period in time or a specific part # range or what....ubt I have but quite a few MPS in my parts collection and just about as many came from the factory with rivets as with screws. They were a 5mm cheese head screw IIRC.
However.....if you are seeing this kind of "hackery" with regard to the MPS....I would bet even money that you are still correct that it has been disassembled.
If put back together correctly and not leaking...its not a big deal. But the issue is that it usually had a leak or some other issue or they would not be disconnecting the vacuum line.
What we really need to see is a picture of the end opposite the vacuum line to see if the outer full load stop epoxy seal has been removed. Even that is not a big deal...if the adjusting screw is still ther and itr has not been screwed with.
Ray |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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Hey Ray,
I thought all the MPS bodies had rivets from the factory. Only makes sense because one would have to drill them out as an anti tamper barrier. Screws would make these units easy to open and tamper with and Bosch and the Feds would not like that... but I could be wrong. When these units go bad it is often the seal between the mating halves that allow the vacuum leaks. I had to fight this issue when I rebuilt mine but finally got it to hold.
Bill |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2024 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
Hey Ray,
I thought all the MPS bodies had rivets from the factory. Only makes sense because one would have to drill them out as an anti tamper barrier. Screws would make these units easy to open and tamper with and Bosch and the Feds would not like that... but I could be wrong. When these units go bad it is often the seal between the mating halves that allow the vacuum leaks. I had to fight this issue when I rebuilt mine but finally got it to hold.
Bill |
I will see if I can drop in some pictures in the am. Plenty of them had screws.
Most of the ones that I have drilled the rivets from I started with nuts and bolts to reppace the rivets. A few I drilled and tapped and replaced with larger screws.
THe one ones that came with screws may have been straight from Europe while the riveted ones were USA. You know how things went toward "anti-tamper" in this country. Ray |
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Alaninin
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2023
Posts: 19
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 9:18 am Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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Ray/Bill/ 411-412,
I am adding a few more photos of the wires in question. Also more questions due to the car not starting now. I’m not sure if I got something disturbed by moving things around or not. It usually starts right up but all of a sudden it just turns over. I first checked it I still have spark and was good. Than I realized that I did not hear the fuel pump come on when the key was turned. Checked to see if I had voltage going to the pump when key was turned and nothing. So before I move forward with anything I need to get it running again. Not sure where to check first on fuel pump electrical.
The car is a 1972 411 wagon. With A/C that doesn’t work. I think everything is there for the gas heater but not sure of the status. I would say it doesn’t work either.
Lots of problems but would say the car body and paint is in great shape. No rust at all. The only issue with the body is that battery acid burnt a hole under the battery. I would say a lot of the car looks like it was in a time capsule.
For the wires going to the starter. The black and yellow goes to ground in the engine compartment. Not sure why it was ran there. Also would you know why this relay is under here? Where should it be?
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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Alan,
Because you are dealing with some wiring issues, you absolutely need to look at a color current flow wiring diagram for this specific year. They are all pretty much available on this Samba site. I have used them in the past and you can't fix anything electrical without these current flows.
The wiring at your starter is all hacked. The yellow wires, the fuse and the relay all have to be traced and compared to a wiring current flow diagram. BUT, these wires will not be on the current flow because someone has added them. To me this looks very much like a "hard start relay" for the ignition and starter. These "fixes" were common on 6 volt VWs to allow full cranking potential for your starter. I am not sure if I have ever seen this on a 12 volt system though. Also that black/yellow striped wire is a mystery. Not factory and someone added this. Where does that connect to?
Now the engine cranks over but does not fire? It is good that you narrowed it down to the fuel pump. On this D Jet injection there is a fuel pump relay that controls the running of the pump. Normally it attaches to the area under the steering column by the brake master cylinder. A rectangular large silver relay with several wires. When you first turn the ignition key it clicks and runs the fuel pump for a second or two...it builds initial pressure in the fuel injection lines....if you listen carefully you can hear the click and the pump running. Then as the cranking continues the fuel pump keeps running and the engine starts. It is wired through the fuse panel and a fuse. The owners manual or current flow diagram will show which fuse it is.
Also you probably have the original fuel injection wiring harness still in the car. Once you start touching or wiggling these wires/connectors the engine will run erractically or not start. ALL the connections have to be tight and secure with no broken wires. A big problem can be the Head Temperature Sensor and wire. This loose or the head sensor defective will cause a NO START. The engine will crank but the injection will not deliver fuel. Ask me how I know this...
Bill |
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Alaninin
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2023
Posts: 19
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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Bill,
The black and yellow go to a ground in the engine compartment.
I plan to get back working on the car some more this week. I will try to find this relay first.
I plan to look for the electric color coded diagram this evening.
Thank you,
Alan |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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| Alaninin wrote: |
Bill,
The black and yellow go to a ground in the engine compartment.
I plan to get back working on the car some more this week. I will try to find this relay first.
I plan to look for the electric color coded diagram this evening.
Thank you,
Alan |
The gray plastic relay you have found underneath is not even from an aircooled VW. It was pulled from a watercooled car.
So we need some better pictures. Just from those you have posted...am I correct in saying that the 15 Amp fuse attached to the yellow wire runs to the gray relay? And that the other end of the yellow wire attaches to a lug on the starter?
You need to follow the other wires from the gray relay and see what they lead to.
The fuel pump relay is held to the subframe below the steering column. It is usually just above the brake pedal. It may be covered up by a cardboard fascia or cover. One of the typical problems is that the screw that holds the relay gets loose and the relay either does not make good ground or the brown wire with ring terminal that is the ground and is also held on by the same screw is loose.
I will look to see where the black and yellow wire goes but show us a picture if where in ground in the engine compartment. On your year, 1972, the closest thing to black and yellow wire in the back end of the car is "yellow and black"....not the same....but it runs from the "J8" heater relay to the Auxiliary fan for the heater.
The only uses of black with yellow stripes in 1972 in the front end of the car feeding the windshield wiper.
However, there are two black and yellow wires in the gasoline furnace wiring loom. One comes the main loom from the front heater control in the dash and goes to one leg of the thermo sensor in the heater channel forward of the left rear wheel. The other black/yellow wire leads from the gasoline furnace ignition coil to the heater combustion blower.
This is why I think the strange relay and fuse set up is for bypassing Certain functions of the gas furnace to get it to run.
Personally, unless you actually need to move this car, I would not be trying to start and run it until you trace out all of the wiring issues and disconnected parts. Also, first thing....replace all of your fuel lines. Ray |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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| Alaninin wrote: |
Bill,
The black and yellow go to a ground in the engine compartment.
I plan to get back working on the car some more this week. I will try to find this relay first.
I plan to look for the electric color coded diagram this evening.
Thank you,
Alan |
Ok, the black/yellow grounds but where does the other end of it attach? Hard to see from the photo. |
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Alaninin
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2023
Posts: 19
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2024 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: What is this? |
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Update: got it started again. The problem with it not starting was the starter relay by the steering column. Pushed on wires and tightened mounting screw and now you hear the fuel pump come on and starts fine.
Now that it starts again I removed the bolt in the hose that was plugged and should be connected to the MAP sensor. The idle went up when bolt removed. Than reconnected to the hose to the MAP sensor and the idle went way up. Not sure where to go next or what to check to get the car running correctly as it should. Any help would be appreciated on this one.
Next question: Will a silicone 90 degree elbow work on the heater hose in upper photo? It says it’s good up to 420 degrees F. Or does anyone have a link to material to use for this? I have not found anything 2 1/8 - 2 1/4 inch high temp hose.
Thank you,
Alan
Small for steps on getting things fixed. |
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