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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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 Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:58 am Post subject: Starter stays on, even with key out |
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Hello, I have a 1970 Squareback that I'm having starter issues with. It just started last week, and I'm looking for others thoughts since it is my daily driver. So, I went to start my car in the morning a week or two ago it started, sounded awful, died and I heard the starter going. I turn off the key, the starter keeps going and it went for a minute or two. Then when I go to start it again, its fine. And it only seems to happen in the mornings. It has done this 3-5 more times but it didn't last long. Then today it wouldn't go off and I had to disconect the battery then when I started it it again, it was fine. So I'm thinking this is a soleniod issue or could it be ignition. The part why I'm thinking ignition is that with the key out it continues to run. The starter is the Automatic style and it is in my manual trans. It has been fine for months now but this issues just developed and is a real issue.
Thanks, Aiden
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1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:06 am Post subject: Re: Starter stays on, even with key out |
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Who you gonna call?
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-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22648
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Starter stays on, even with key out |
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Probably your ignition switch. Buy two because the junk you get now only lasts a few years
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31362
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Starter stays on, even with key out |
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| Ceckert64 wrote: |
| I may end up trying a different starter. I have a lot of them sitting around. |
That sounds like a decent plan since you have other starters.
25 years ago we had a recent "rebuilt by Bosch" starter in my 1971. One day Mrs. Cusser was driving it and while cruising along at 45 mph the starter kicked on by itself. I took the starter back to the parts store and guy behind the counter insisted Mrs. Cusser activated the starter while driving (which she didn't, and remember the ignition key lock-out preventing this). So I then mangled up the innards of the starter and took back to their other close location and got a replacement also "rebuilt by Bosch" unit, which is still powering the 1971.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Starter stays on, even with key out |
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| if somebody put a hard start relay on it that may be the issue. it;s also possiable for the starter to do it. mine had a hard start relay on it when I got it it was lounted rong and one day after washing it good and I started washing my wifes car my bug drove off into the woods across the street by it';s self......I yelled at it to come back but it didnt listen. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22648
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Starter stays on, even with key out |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| Probably your ignition switch. Buy two because the junk you get now only lasts a few years |
This is the key here ...
| Quote: |
| The part why I'm thinking ignition is that with the key out it continues to run. |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Starter stays on, even with key out |
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I don’t know why I didn’t think of this originally but I can do an easy test to see if it’s ignition by pulling the plug since the T3 steering column has two big plugs for the electrical. One, high/low beam with turn signals, and one for the ignition switch. I can pull the plug when it starts doing it again and see.
It’s not a hard start relay. I know there isn’t one on my car. Was Herbie not listening that day 
I will try a new starter if the test shows it’s that.
I’m going to guess it’s the ignition switch. I know the tumbler for it has been changed once because the ignition key is different from the door keys. I’m not sure but I think the car was broken into at some point from the replacement ignition tumbler and when I got it the drivers side window was broken. If it did ever get a new ignition switch it would have been the mid 70s at the latest.
Thanks for the help!
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Starter stays on, even with key out |
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| Ceckert64 wrote: |
I don’t know why I didn’t think of this originally but I can do an easy test to see if it’s ignition by pulling the plug since the T3 steering column has two big plugs for the electrical. One, high/low beam with turn signals, and one for the ignition switch. I can pull the plug when it starts doing it again and see.
It’s not a hard start relay. I know there isn’t one on my car. Was Herbie not listening that day
I will try a new starter if the test shows it’s that.
I’m going to guess it’s the ignition switch. I know the tumbler for it has been changed once because the ignition key is different from the door keys. I’m not sure but I think the car was broken into at some point from the replacement ignition tumbler and when I got it the drivers side window was broken. If it did ever get a new ignition switch it would have been the mid 70s at the latest.
Thanks for the help! |
We must be brothers- I had this same issue on my first car- a 1972 Squareback- 45 years ago. Mine started off like yours, then graduated to the starter running till it killed the battery (disconnecting didn't help- the starter immediately reactivated when the batt cable was put back on the battery)), then one really cold Ohio night it activated by itself and chugged through about a foot of snow into the neighbor's yard.
The diagnosis was a short in the starter. A post- mortem showed that the grease in the bendix throw was the real culprit- it wasn't releasing all the way and when the starter got cold enough the parts contracted and the grease solidified such that the internal switch could first keep itself activated, which graduated into the contacts being close enough to be able able to activate itself. This is why the problem never rectified itself until it ran the battery down- the generated heat would soften the grease, I think.
The giveaway as to whether it's the starter or the ignition switch is quite obvious- if the warning lights go off with the ign switch, it's likely the starter.
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Starter stays on, even with key out |
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| Tram wrote: |
| Ceckert64 wrote: |
I don’t know why I didn’t think of this originally but I can do an easy test to see if it’s ignition by pulling the plug since the T3 steering column has two big plugs for the electrical. One, high/low beam with turn signals, and one for the ignition switch. I can pull the plug when it starts doing it again and see.
It’s not a hard start relay. I know there isn’t one on my car. Was Herbie not listening that day
I will try a new starter if the test shows it’s that.
I’m going to guess it’s the ignition switch. I know the tumbler for it has been changed once because the ignition key is different from the door keys. I’m not sure but I think the car was broken into at some point from the replacement ignition tumbler and when I got it the drivers side window was broken. If it did ever get a new ignition switch it would have been the mid 70s at the latest.
Thanks for the help! |
We must be brothers- I had this same issue on my first car- a 1972 Squareback- 45 years ago. Mine started off like yours, then graduated to the starter running till it killed the battery (disconnecting didn't help- the starter immediately reactivated when the batt cable was put back on the battery)), then one really cold Ohio night it activated by itself and chugged through about a foot of snow into the neighbor's yard.
The diagnosis was a short in the starter. A post- mortem showed that the grease in the bendix throw was the real culprit- it wasn't releasing all the way and when the starter got cold enough the parts contracted and the grease solidified such that the internal switch could first keep itself activated, which graduated into the contacts being close enough to be able able to activate itself. This is why the problem never rectified itself until it ran the battery down- the generated heat would soften the grease, I think.
The giveaway as to whether it's the starter or the ignition switch is quite obvious- if the warning lights go off with the ign switch, it's likely the starter. |
Wow! It sounds like the exact same issue, by any chance was it an automatic starter? It sounds like I need to get on it quick then. Is this a common issue? It does it when it’s cold in the mornings but not after school. Winter in Michigan is coming and it will be cold. I will see if I can get it figured out. The short would be in the solenoid, correct?
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Starter stays on, even with key out |
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| Ceckert64 wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
| Ceckert64 wrote: |
I don’t know why I didn’t think of this originally but I can do an easy test to see if it’s ignition by pulling the plug since the T3 steering column has two big plugs for the electrical. One, high/low beam with turn signals, and one for the ignition switch. I can pull the plug when it starts doing it again and see.
It’s not a hard start relay. I know there isn’t one on my car. Was Herbie not listening that day
I will try a new starter if the test shows it’s that.
I’m going to guess it’s the ignition switch. I know the tumbler for it has been changed once because the ignition key is different from the door keys. I’m not sure but I think the car was broken into at some point from the replacement ignition tumbler and when I got it the drivers side window was broken. If it did ever get a new ignition switch it would have been the mid 70s at the latest.
Thanks for the help! |
We must be brothers- I had this same issue on my first car- a 1972 Squareback- 45 years ago. Mine started off like yours, then graduated to the starter running till it killed the battery (disconnecting didn't help- the starter immediately reactivated when the batt cable was put back on the battery)), then one really cold Ohio night it activated by itself and chugged through about a foot of snow into the neighbor's yard.
The diagnosis was a short in the starter. A post- mortem showed that the grease in the bendix throw was the real culprit- it wasn't releasing all the way and when the starter got cold enough the parts contracted and the grease solidified such that the internal switch could first keep itself activated, which graduated into the contacts being close enough to be able able to activate itself. This is why the problem never rectified itself until it ran the battery down- the generated heat would soften the grease, I think.
The giveaway as to whether it's the starter or the ignition switch is quite obvious- if the warning lights go off with the ign switch, it's likely the starter. |
Wow! It sounds like the exact same issue, by any chance was it an automatic starter? It sounds like I need to get on it quick then. Is this a common issue? It does it when it’s cold in the mornings but not after school. Winter in Michigan is coming and it will be cold. I will see if I can get it figured out. The short would be in the solenoid, correct? |
Starters are the same except for where the nose bearing is- Auto is self supported while manual is the bushing in the trans.
When you turn the key to "start", it powers the '50' (starter control) terminal, which draws the solenoid plunger in as in the attached photo. This throws the starter drive gear out, simultaneously closing a set of contacts inside (that the pic doesn't show) that connects Terminal 30 (battery power) directly to the starter drive. When you release the key, it deactivates Terminal 50 on the solenoid, and an internal spring pushes everything back into original position, ceasing starter operation.
If something in the solenoid throw causes it to jam in the start position, it'll just keep running. A weak return spring would do this constantly, but the only thing possibly temperature related would be the lubricant. Make sense?
I've seen these starters fail two ways- first way is the way in which we are discussing, and the second is when the starter drive just goes "whirr" but doesn't engage the flywheel. Both happen cold, and both are the results of shitty lube. The other common Bosch failure- no action when hot- is purely electrical.
Hope this helps.
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Starter stays on, even with key out |
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| Ceckert64 wrote: |
I got the new starter in. It was a really rusty starter from a 412 manual transmission. It looked like it was about to rust through the case, but it works. I couldn’t even get one of the nuts off for the starter post. Anyways it works, and starts up good. So I will still probably try to fix this starter, or just find a new solenoid for it.
Thanks for the help! |
The thing to look at is if the starter drive gear binds during in/ out travel. The lube for that gear is what binds. Leave it in your stepmom's freezer overnight and see if it is hard to move in the AM. 
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Starter stays on, even with key out |
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| Tram wrote: |
| Ceckert64 wrote: |
I got the new starter in. It was a really rusty starter from a 412 manual transmission. It looked like it was about to rust through the case, but it works. I couldn’t even get one of the nuts off for the starter post. Anyways it works, and starts up good. So I will still probably try to fix this starter, or just find a new solenoid for it.
Thanks for the help! |
The thing to look at is if the starter drive gear binds during in/ out travel. The lube for that gear is what binds. Leave it in your stepmom's freezer overnight and see if it is hard to move in the AM. |
wrong guy
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Starter stays on, even with key out |
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| Chickensoup wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
| Ceckert64 wrote: |
I got the new starter in. It was a really rusty starter from a 412 manual transmission. It looked like it was about to rust through the case, but it works. I couldn’t even get one of the nuts off for the starter post. Anyways it works, and starts up good. So I will still probably try to fix this starter, or just find a new solenoid for it.
Thanks for the help! |
The thing to look at is if the starter drive gear binds during in/ out travel. The lube for that gear is what binds. Leave it in your stepmom's freezer overnight and see if it is hard to move in the AM. |
wrong guy |
Well, ya both start with "C"....
Yeah, yeah, I know... "OK, boomer" 
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1957
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Starter stays on, even with key out |
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| Ive seen them get hung up, as well as weld the contacts. then there are the ones you have to wack to get them to work due to the contacts being dead. and some hung up due to rust. I ordered one of the cheep vw gear reduction starters off flebay lon long ago performance usa I think. they look like IMI and use the IMI # as well as try to pass them off as IMI. it was full of rust, never even worked. it was DOA the seller said they get good cores out of china&japan and just put the addaptor&bendix on them they do not remanufactuer the starter,,,apparently this one was a flood victom. I declined a replacement and got refund....after the 2nd one was dead and barly turn over the motor. with all the starter manufactures hear in the usa( new not rebuilt) I would think they could buy the partials and just add thier end and have a true new nippon starter for harley&vw&everything else they sell pure shit for. but it was $40 cheeper than the IMI......go figure. |
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