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2054 Build for the Fastback
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VWporscheGT3
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:48 am    Post subject: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

As many of you know I recently just got my fastback back on the road. while the 1600 is working great, plenty of power for normal flat roads though not explosive coming out of corners. It is time to plan for what I call the intermediate motor. eventually 3 to 4 years time I will build up a 2276 with all the frills , forged pistons , etc to make a great permanent power plant (permanent is always a joke) But i definately need more . I live at 5K feet altitude , I go up to Lake Tahoe on a regular basis, spend alot of time around 7K, so i need something that is gonna give me a little more... poop .. than a 1600. And while I could probably have some forged 4032 pistons made for this build... I am going to use what i have on hand.

for those of you who dont know , I work for United Engine & Machine. we do Silvo-lite, KB, ICON, and Dualoy. I am one of the guys you call and talk to for tech support, as well I operate the CMM, and other precision measurement devices. So what I plan to do as I have time is also load up some measurements and thinks like profile scans so you guys can see what the barrels can look like on a microscopic level. (improper terminology, dont shoot)

so Here we go, here is what my plans are, and I am open to criticism or analysis of my choices, as well as advice. My budget is miniscule so I will try to stick to a fairly fine budget.

2054cc (74x94)

74mm CB performance counterweighted crank (planned purchase)
CB 8 dowel lightened flywheel (planned purchase)
STD VW rods
AS41 STD STD case, 8mm studs.
AA pistons and barrels (yeah i work for a piston company and im going to use these AA's.... cause I have had them sitting on a shelf for 16 years. )
cylinder heads are factory replacments that have been opened up for big valves, chamber will be worked and the runners with as well. I will post alot of pictures during that part.

i have not selected a cam yet... my planned goals for cam is for good power between 2k to 5k RPM. i just havent chosen anything yet and would welcome advice

plan on using CB lightweight lifters
Single or Dual Hi rev springs (not sure as i dont have a cam selected yet)
stock or 1.25 ratio rockers.

Already have the type intakes and linkage for Webers/dell's. what i havent figured out yet is carburetion , i have 45 DRLA's i plan on using them on the 2276 when built. While I'm sure i could change the vents and jet accordingly...i think it might be a better move to go with some 40 IDF's what do you guys think?

I will likely be sending my Pistons to the Factory and having them coated with Line 2 line skirt coating. if you havent heard of it... its the shiz. its an abradable adaptive skirt technology. sprayed on to 80% of the total skirt clearance it will allow the piston to find its own best fit, and once it does , barring any catastrophe , it will greatly reduce wear and piston rock, as well as opening up millions of little pores that will hold oil and aid in lubrication.

Projected compression ratio is 9.5:1 , i plan to be at about .040 quench , I do not have a horsepower goal and would be happy around 110-120.

all while building up this engine I will be in the middle of building up my Stroker 5.3 LS block for my 87 El Camino. which will be taking up most of my budget, and a Video will be on the UEM website once we get started for that build. The El Camino till very recently was my Daily. and its now time for the love it needs... the poor old 305 needs to be retired... and i need to see if i cant shatter a GM 7.5 rear end with the blip of a throttle.. lol

This engines projected install frame is roughly August or September of next year, until then i have lots of work to do to get it there. again all advice is welcome .



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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Any particular reason for going with a 5.3 over a standard cheaper to build 350 that would drop right in and look stock? Parts for that are dirt cheap.

If you're dead set on running an LS, why not a 6.0L?

Why not go with an all aluminum case instead of an AS 41 case? That way you could have the oil fittings welded on for the filter. When I saw 2054, my first thought was a t-4 case. Especially since it would be a middle engine with a future replacement planned.
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VWporscheGT3
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
Any particular reason for going with a 5.3 over a standard cheaper to build 350 that would drop right in and look stock? Parts for that are dirt cheap.

If you're dead set on running an LS, why not a 6.0L?

Why not go with an all aluminum case instead of an AS 41 case? That way you could have the oil fittings welded on for the filter. When I saw 2054, my first thought was a t-4 case. Especially since it would be a middle engine with a future replacement planned.


Bob my friend,
Laughing i picked up the 5.3 about 4 years back for next to nothing, so it is what I had which seems to be the theme with most things in my life. I've personally had 5.3's make over 400hp with a cam kit, long tube headers and a Trailblazer SS manifold. I agree a 6.0 makes more sense , but i wasnt going to spend the extra for that block. I could have also over bored it to LS1 bore , and with my 4" crank have a modern 383 ....but didnt want to. cause aparently i like weird shtuff.
Standard small block or even 383 wont make the kind of power i want at the compression ratio's desired.... which if im honest with myself , its an el camino... anything more that 250 horse and those back tires are gonna need some weight over them to keep them from spinning all the time.

as far as the AS41 , its what I have laying around, and the way this and my 1600 are it will work with my modified fan shroud. when i build the 2276... were talking aluminum case modified as you suggest , scat crank and rods, built for strength and survivability while making good power. but this for now is for a little more scoot and trying to utilize stuff i already have... I could put it together right now with a 69mm crank and have a 1914... but I was thinking a little gain in stroke with 74 , will likely make it to where im not having to shim the living hell out of everything with a longer stroke , have a modest bump in torque over the 69 and put me over that magically 2.0L mark ive been waiting for since I was in highschool.

I value your opinion Bob , better suggestion?
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Last edited by VWporscheGT3 on Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

If you don't already have the parts I would build a 74X92 Thickwall. It will have better rev's than the 94's, they slow an engine down. It'll Be stronger too. Then you could just run Panchitos 40x35.5's and dual 40's for carbs. The smaller carbs and heads would probably develop more torque and be a little more behaved with the short intakes Type3's have to have. Cam of 250' to 260' @ .050" Special order Webcam grinds.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

what I'm running right now in my 65 square is 74x92 thick wall, Panchito 40x 35.5 , Web 163, and 45 dells with 30/34 berg grooved venturies. (because I had the 45's)

it was a step up from the 1904cc 74 x 90.5, L3 heads 35 X 32mm , web 163, 36 dells , which was a fun idle to 5k, good torque street combo.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

"VWporscheGT3" I think the Spring goes on top of the plunger which is on top of the ball, Also the balls can get out of round that can mess things up.
"W1K1" I commented on your post with the Phone Dials.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
If you don't already have the parts I would build a 74X92 Thickwall. It will have better rev's than the 94's, they slow an engine down. It'll Be stronger too. Then you could just run Panchitos 40x35.5's and dual 40's for carbs. The smaller carbs and heads would probably develop more torque and be a little more behaved with the short intakes Type3's have to have. Cam of 250' to 260' @ .050" Special order Webcam grinds.


Already have the 94's case is already cut for them. the heads were some cheapies with big valves stuffed in and no port work , so i will be adjusting the chamber and the ports accordingly .

i already have a 69mm counterweighted crank and flywheel that i used before when this was a 1914.... but would like to get more out of it than even that.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

The 74mm crank is nice! I did mine with 5.325" Rods which with stock heads ran stock pushrods. Also consider the 92id 94 od Piston and cylinders they would fit what you have. But if just doing a 69 stroke I would go 94's And with those big heads go 94's, Depends on how much top end power your after vs with something like Panchitos the low end torque will be higher and the top end limited with 94's but not so much limit in RPM if going 92's and Panchitos. Which Panchito? I don't know.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

VWporscheGT3 wrote:


Bob my friend,
Laughing i picked up the 5.3 about 4 years back for next to nothing, so it is what I had which seems to be the theme with most things in my life. I've personally had 5.3's make over 400hp with a cam kit, long tube headers and a Trailblazer SS manifold. I agree a 6.0 makes more sense , but i wasnt going to spend the extra for that block. I could have also over bored it to LS1 bore , and with my 4" crank have a modern 383 ....but didnt want to. cause aparently i like weird shtuff.
Standard small block or even 383 wont make the kind of power i want at the compression ratio's desired.... which if im honest with myself , its an el camino... anything more that 250 horse and those back tires are gonna need some weight over them to keep them from spinning all the time.

as far as the AS41 , its what I have laying around, and the way this and my 1600 are it will work with my modified fan shroud. when i build the 2276... were talking aluminum case modified as you suggest , scat crank and rods, built for strength and survivability while making good power. but this for now is for a little more scoot and trying to utilize stuff i already have... I could put it together right now with a 69mm crank and have a 1914... but I was thinking a little gain in stroke with 74 , will likely make it to where im not having to shim the living hell out of everything with a longer stroke , have a modest bump in torque over the 69 and put me over that magically 2.0L mark ive been waiting for since I was in highschool.

I value your opinion Bob , better suggestion?


I'm guessing you're planning on running a stand alone FI set up on the 5.3L. I say that, as most LS motors are FI, and require an ECU to run the kind of numbers you want to get out of it. The nice thing is the Elky has plenty of room to play with, especially since you could easily stuff a 454 in it without too much trouble (bolt in swap). Fortunately the aftermarket has been building all sorts of LS swap stuff, which will make any conversion fairly easy for you.

As for the T-3 engine, I'd probably do what Mark did/is suggesting, as he's already done it, and is driving it regularly. You'll need to add an additional oil cooler to it, mainly due to your outside air temps (gotta keep it cool), and then play with the jetting for your altitude. From the sounds of it, you're after more low end grunt, versus wanting to rev the hell out of it. The 74mm crank will help with that.
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64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:27 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Big Question..
"Do you plan on running stock heater boxes"
?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Steve ,
that is a big question. what i was thinking about doing is buying the bigger J tubes , cutting the clamshell of the heater box off another set like another member on here and adding the chore boy also... it gets fricken cold here and the heat has been working great in the fasty so far, not sure i want to completely give that up
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

1904cc is supposed to be the limit for stock heater boxes with L3 heads, if you need to flow more then you'll have to butcher some heat exchangers.

I found that the engine was happier with the J tubes on my 1904cc.
I don't know what air speed is supposed to be like on the stock heat exchangers, since I haven't run them for several years, but the chore boy stuffed heater boxes put out plenty of heat, just not at a high air volume, I considering adding a bilge fan under the seat to give it a kick in the pants, but otherwise I get heat after about 5 minutes drive time
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Now Iím just talking out my piehole again here,
Because I havenít verified..

But it -seems- to me that welding some fins onto the J-tubes will make them heat up and transfer that heat to the airstream in the heater box better than anything thatís just sitting there next to the j-tube..

A chore-boy certainly has more surface area, but itís not being heated much..

At least thatís my theory, and Iím sticking to it!


I saw a 1904 *cough* Brent *cough*. That was choked up badly by a stock diameter exhaust,
Even tho it was stock valve size.
Been written by more than one big builder that 1776 is the limit and 1914 is too much for stock size exhaust.
1914 in my Oval with 40 x35.5 breathes very well thru a 1 5/8Ē.
Even down low..
So, IMHO, a bigger exhaust is a key part of making a happy motor.
And thereís really no down-side, except heat, of course.. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Iím assuming that your 94 AAs are A pin height, correct?
If not, iím coming after you with my rubber chicken! Razz
Best double-check.
Maybe youíll luck out and you accidentally bought Bs.


Iíd totally run those big Dells before forking over for another set of smaller carbs.
Thereís so much to getting a set of carbs sussed out, that youíre not going to want to fight that battle twice.
Thereís a set of smaller vents that someone has to sell you cheap,
And changing vents is a small part of getting a set of carbs to behave.
Very small part..
Like with the exhaust, thereís no down side to having intake things big.


9.5:1 is too much CR for a carbed type 3.
Itíll ping run hard on a hot day. Even with a big cam.
Type 3s are heavy.


Iím old school with combos.
Too many small cams, small carbs, small exhausts today,
But all these big stroker cranks and 94s..
Check out some old HotVWs from 30-40 years ago;
1776s and 1679s running IDAs and an FK-8.
Build it to breathe, and to rev, no matter what size it is.
Itís a toy, right?
Why build a dog on purpose at the same price..?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
Now Iím just talking out my piehole again here,
Because I havenít verified..

But it -seems- to me that welding some fins onto the J-tubes will make them heat up and transfer that heat to the airstream in the heater box better than anything thatís just sitting there next to the j-tube..

A chore-boy certainly has more surface area, but itís not being heated much..

At least thatís my theory, and Iím sticking to it!


heat muffs have been around for a long time with the small aircraft builders check out this article from 1974 , page 28 & 29 shows a VW application, and uses a spring wrapped around the tube and tacked in a couple places. http://acversailles.free.fr/documentation/08~Docum...ngelis.pdf

The guy that gave me the idea, thought I was nuts wanting to weld a bunch of fins on the tube. He and his aircraft building buddies have been using the scrubbers for years on their aircraft projects. His explanation is you need the air to slow down, and absorb the heat coming off the pipe. Although the incoming airspeed is much higher on an aircraft, it still worked
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

just so you don't have to go looking for this , note that they use an old propane canister for the housing LOL
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

I wonder how good that screen door spring works for heat transfer?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Steve , thank you sir for your input on compression ratio, probably the only way to get around that would be fuel injection i suppose, and that crap aint happening in atleast the next 5 years , unlikely in the next 10 lol.

the 1600 i run now at 8.7:1 with an engle 110 runs pretty dang cool , barely breaking the 200 degree mark at 70 miles an hour ive seen peaks around 210, run hard, climbing up a steep pass. the 94mm pistons are A pin height, not b's , the B's in 4032 i have would even be something a bit strange at a compression height of 33mm.... but thats for a different build .

in terms of cams , im looking at the CB2242

Adv. Duration 298į
Dur. @ .050" 248į
Lift @ cam .389"
Lift w/1.1:1 Rocker Arms .428"

28mm Lightweight lifters and adjustble cam gear to degree it in.

thoughts concerns human sacrifices? and if i use my 69mm counterweighted crank and stay 1914.....


if I stay 1914, i save about 400 bucks... the build longblock only with roughly be about 500 bucks... then there in new AN fittings, and hose...... and carburetor parts to get the 45's dialed in .... oh boy

considering the cam kit i'll have to buy for the LS is about 600 bucks .... feel like id be coming out ahead
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:34 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

I have always contended that a real market exists for a performance HE that actually heats.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

I was seriously looking into casting fins on the inner j pipe..lotsa work.Would entail splitting the shell off a HE and then attaching the heat sink..and different sizes too!! Couldnt see the hobbiest paying 700$ for a set
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