New Type 1 Engine not starting & Full Flow leak

[Ry-dog]

• New Type 1 engine ’70 Westy.
• Same exact build and engine builder as Aeromech’s (1800 DP, cheater cam).
• 205Q distributor with points/condensor and stock fuel pump rebuilt by Sparx werks.
• 34-PICT-3 carb rebuilt by Volkbitz (with dashpot and throttle positioner).
• Engine was tapped for full flow by engine builder using kit from gene berg (but I ditched the stainless flex hose and went with parker hose and fittings.

Cannot get this engine started. Engine cranks nicely, but just won’t turn over. Battery situation all set (was actually using jumper cables from a running engine to give it plenty of cranking power), spark very good from the coil to distributor, distributor installed correctly and rotor turns when manually turning the engine, points look good with feeler gauge as points open/close during engine rotation (cannot measure dwell until it is running). Double and triple checked all distributor wires are hooked up correctly. Fuel is pumping into the carb and that is where I left off because I noticed engine was leaking oil and stopped all attempts to start it again. Drained the oil and removed apron, tin, exhaust, moustache bar, pulley, more tin.

I can see oil was leaking from the pump cover fitting for the full flow connection (a little difficult to see from the photo, but I confirmed oil was leaking from there). After removing items, I stupidly figured I should remove the fitting from the cover but broke it off. Now that it is broken off, I can see it was assembled with red Loctite and am surprised it leaked from this fitting given the evidence of red Loctite. My kit came with the pressure relief cover and berg sells the full flow covers with the 45-deg fitting already installed. I do not know what the advantage/disadvantage of the pressure relief cover is, but that is what they sent me. During my attempts to start the engine, I did try to loosen my oil filter to see if that would help the start, but it burped oil all over the floor even though I had a bucket underneath it.

Looking for advice on how to proceed with the oil pump cover and if there are any tips to get a new engine started with full flow. Any chance I can salvage this oil cover and get the broken piece of fitting out of the cover or should I just get a new cover?

I know I have more things to troubleshoot once I get put back together after this oil pump cover thing. Planning to check I am getting spark to each plug, then move on the carb troubleshooting. Any advice appreciated. Thanks

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'70 Westy
'14 Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel

[Wildthings]

Maybe try to come up with a steel fitting verses a brass one. They should be available from any well stocked hydraulic equipment jobber or you could search one online. The loctite will let go if you heat it hot enough and then an easy out will remove the fitting. I am wondering if the fitting wasn't already cracked?

50% chance your wires are installed 180° out on the distributor cap.

In most of the country to say that your engine will not turn over, means it will not crank. Sounds like yours is turning over just fine, but will not fire up and start.

[aeromech]

Hi there,
You sound bitter. Best to work through the problem before assigning blame to Jeff (the engine builder) who test runs every engine after he builds them. I’ve been inside his shop and seen his run stand.

From what you are saying I’d have to guess that you hooked up the in/out lines to your external oil filter wrong. It does matter which is the in and which is the out.

Next, I’d assume you’ve got your ignition wires wrong somehow if you’re not getting the engine to at least try to run. Things would have to be very wrong if it doesn’t even pop.

The oil pump cover. You’ll need to use an easy out or some other way to unscrew what you’ve broken off. Brass fittings work fine. You just got frustrated and don’t know when tight is tight.

Jeff is a good engine builder. Before you come on a public forum and vent you’d better be certain that it’s his fault because otherwise it’s not fair. He doesn’t watch this forum and can’t defend himself.

In my opinion you’ve done everything you could to build a good engine. I’m very happy with mine. You’ve used all the right people for your distributor, carburetor, etc. You just need to calm down and figure out where the problem is.
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
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Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[Ry-dog]

All good points to check out. I will certainly go through all my distributor connections again once I get everything back together.

To be clear, I am not blaming anyone but myself for not getting the engine started. If anything, I’d say I was blaming the fitting in the pump cover. By referencing the engine build and builder was to give readers a frame of reference for what my engine is and the setup to aid in troubleshooting the issue (and that I used a reputable builder where at least one other person here on the forum has this same build and a great engine). I value all your opinions Gary and respect all you do for the members here on the forum. I never thought the builder had anything to do with why I can’t get my engine started and I didn’t think my post insinuated that the builder was the reason. My apologies to Jeff is this is the way I came across.

I have the instructions from my full flow kit and it shows to route the output from the pump cover to the inlet of the oil filter. Output from the filter to the case tap. Does this routing sound consistent with what others have for full flow kits on their engines?
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'70 Westy
'14 Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel

[kreemoweet]

Pressure relief oil pump cover is to prevent huge pressure from cold start, large pump, thick oil, etc. from blowing up the filter or
oil cooler. Likely not needed on a stock engine build. Using Loctite on tapered pipe threads seems very dubious to me, my experience
with that is the extreme pressures and temps developed while tightening pipe fitting will cause the Loctite to set up instantly,
preventing normal joint makeup and positioning of fitting. Whoever installed that fitting (Berg or your engine builder?) should be the
one to replace it, as it was clearly not right.
_________________
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'68 bug: seized by the authorities
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Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[scubasteve321]

[aeromech]

it shows to route the output from the pump cover to the inlet of the oil filter.

Are you sure that you understand which is inlet and which is outlet? Some filter adapters have it written on the casting.
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[Abscate]

Give it a sniff of ether to see if you get some fire. I doubt you will, it’s ignition 95% of the time, and 99.9% of the time if you have a carb from Tim

Don’t worry about the oil for this, 99% of engine wear occurs while you are on Internet Fora, not startup,

Back that brass fitting out with an EZ out and replace, paying heed to in/out as above
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.ssS!

[aeromech]

If you remove the pump cover be sure to carefully remove all of the gasket. Then when it goes back together be sure to use the correct, rice paper thin gasket. If you use a thicker gasket you’ll have low hot oil pressure
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[blue72beetle]

Are you 1000% positive fuel is moving?

After my new engine install (and all new fuel lines), it took forrrrrrrever for fuel to move and it to finally start. I was getting frustrated. Those fuel pumps don't like to move air.
_________________
-Andy-
-1970 Ghia-
-1971 Bus 1776 Microsquirt EFI-

[aeromech]

Just pour a shot glass of fuel down the carb throat. Then crank. It should at least pop
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[Ry-dog]

All great feedback. Thanks to all for suggestions and advice.

I do believe the non-start is likely my error with plug wires, but will not be able to troubleshoot again until I am back together. I clearly have plenty of crank, just not firing up. Tracking down a pipe nipple extractor or EZ out locally and hoping I won't have to remove the pump cover to extract and install a new fitting. Will update as soon as I get further along
_________________
'70 Westy
'14 Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel

[scubasteve321]

[SGKent]

think for a minute. If the fitting snapped twisting it, an ez-out may not work. You may have to heat the red loctite up to get it to break free. I would be speaking to the builder how he wants you to proceed.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Wildthings]

[richparker]

What is your plan with those oil lines? From your photo it looks like they are going to run right in front of the sled tin.
_________________
__________
’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build
’63 Deluxe Build

[Bulli Klinik]

I'm kind of surprised the cover didn't break before the fitting...

Pull the cover, heat and remove the broken piece, throw those aircraft nuts in the garbage and buy the correct SEALING nuts, reinstall with thinnest gasket possible and a minimal amount of RTV, just lightly wet the gasket. TORQUE to 18ftlbs.

And like Rich alluded, plan your oil line runs and modify tin accordingly. It gets tight on early Bays.
_________________
I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs

[aeromech]

delete
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[SGKent]

how do you fit the mustache bar?
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[aeromech]

_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound