fresh engine rebuild, it finally started, but.... It's Alive!!

[TrollFromDownBelow]

As stated, fresh build, cranks, won't start. I used high quality parts (HAM heads, Mahle P's and C's, etc) and went completely stock with the specs. Had the long block professionally assembled by a well respected, and seasoned individual. Therefore, chances are slim there is an issue with the rebuild. So let's start with the simple stuff.

- engine static timed
- engine getting nice hot spark (put a spare plug in # 4 and grounded to shroud)
- triple checked firing order and wires
- Double checked all other electrical connections
- brand new 800 cc battery (trickle charged it over night)
- fresh gas in the tank (about 2-3 gallons)
- fuel pump works, and I have gas at the left fuel rail. Fuel pump maybe has 1000 miles on it.

If I put the key in the run position and move the AFM arm off the the stop, the fuel pump comes on like it should, although I can't remember if it should stop on it's own after reaching a certain fuel pressure or not...mine runs as long as I hold the arm open....

The bus ran fine prior to the rebuild, so am assuming that the FI harness is good. EDIT: Same goes for the AFM, and the AFM settings.

If I squirt some starter fluid into the large vacuum line from the decel to the S boot I get a few anemic pops. Makes me think it may not be getting enough gas?

What should I check next and in what order?
_________________
1976 Westy (aka Tripod)
2.0 liter FI solid lifters
212k miles

[sjbartnik]

Have you verified if the injectors are firing? Based on your description it does sound like you're not getting fuel.

Fuel pump is correct as you describe it - it should run as long as the key is on and the flap is held open. When the flap is allowed to close, the pump should stop.

Take a minute and verify that you have the injector trigger wire from the FI harness connected to the correct side of the coil. It needs to go on the NEGATIVE side of the coil in order to give the ECU the info it needs to fire the injectors.

Would be nice if it's that simple.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650

[busdaddy]

Sounds like either not enough, or too much fuel. Are the plugs wet?, how long did the rebuild take?, the injectors could be stuck from sitting.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

Слава Україні!

[TrollFromDownBelow]

Pulled the plug on cylinder #3 and it was dry. Confirmed FI terminal was hooked to the negative coil terminal, pulled it on and off a few times to ensure it had a good connection and did the same with the ground spades. Cranked it again, still no start (but I also forgot to reconnect the plug wire to cylinder 3 ). However, I checked cylinder 3, and now it has gas on it.

It's been 2 years since the bus has run, so not sure if that is long enough for the injectors to stick. I typically put in brand name, mid grade gas in it. I did not have the injectors serviced, as the bus was running very well, and the plugs were the right color.

Trickle charging the battery again, and will try again tomorrow. If I can't get it to fire pretty quickly, will pull all the plugs to look for gas, and will probably pull the injectors. Short of sending them out and having them serviced, would it do any good to soak them in a strong solvent, or is that futile?
_________________
1976 Westy (aka Tripod)
2.0 liter FI solid lifters
212k miles

[airschooled]

Do not crank the engine over more than necessary on an engine that has never been run; the cam lubrication is critical in the first few moments of an engine’s life.

Have you actually checked the fuel pressure with a gauge? Was the pump disconnected?

I suggest acquiring a Bosch 2 noid light for situations like this. A helper can crank the engine for a second, and you can instantly tell if the injectors are getting their pulses.

I would run through the AFC Troubleshooting Guide diagnostic table, doing all the resistance readings.

Have you confirmed spark plug wire order by physically looking at the valves? You can only trust the cap/rotor if the engine is known to run... A helper can rock the engine around TDC, and whichever cylinders valve “exchange” at TDC is the OPPOSITE of the cylinder truly at TDC. Clear as mud?

Robbie
_________________
Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com

[SGKent]

pull the connectors off each injector. Use a 9V small battery jumpered to each one momentarily and listen to hear if it clicks. If it doesn't click the pintle is stuck. Report back before you try to clean them or anything. They can stick just sitting that long. Use a noid light to see if the injectors flash. Listen to the fuel pump to see if it is running when it is supposed to be.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Wildthings]

Swap the wires 180° around the cap and see if she will fire up. Very easy to get the drive in 180°, happens to most of us from time to time.

[TrollFromDownBelow]

Going to go do some more futzing tonight after dinner. Before I crank the engine over again I'm going to:

- confirm 32ish PSI at the fuel rail
- that the injectors are getting electrical pulses
- that the injectors are not stuck
- that TDC for # 1 is truly TDC (check that the valves are closed)

As far as putting the dizzy on 180 deg off...thought that was not possible, as the groove/tang was slightly off center to prevent this?
_________________
1976 Westy (aka Tripod)
2.0 liter FI solid lifters
212k miles

[Wildthings]

[TrollFromDownBelow]

Didn't fix it, although I definitely found a big part of the problem. I decided to first check if #1 was really #1, and found that there was 0 valve lash on both valves. Same problem with #3 cylinder, 0 valve lash both intake and exhaust. Rear two cylinders were dead on at .006. I spent a good 10 minutes cranking the engine and watching the valves operate on #1 to ensure I was at TDC.

Assuming the valves weren't fully sealing on two cylinders, thought for sure this was the problem. Cranked it a few times but didn't catch, although it did pop consistently as soon as I let off the ignition....is this a symptom of something else I should check?

It's getting late, so decided to knock it off for tonight, but I did go out and get a noid light, and a 9 volt battery so I can check that the FI is working.
_________________
1976 Westy (aka Tripod)
2.0 liter FI solid lifters
212k miles

[Wildthings]

[Abscate]

[mikedjames]

Maybe this is the classic burnt ignition switch - it provides cranking power in crank position, but the ignition feed to the coil and ECU is off while cranking. Then when you release the key, the coil and ECU power up but the engine is spinning too slowly to catch.
_________________
Ancient vehicles and vessels

1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.

1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy

[scubasteve321]

[TrollFromDownBelow]

I genuinely appreciate all of the input people have provided - not just on this thread but others; it's been extremely helpful.

Utilizing Robbie's suggestion to confirm TDC by watching valves articulate, lead me to find zero lash on the front two cylinders; in fact at least one valve on each cylinder was under some spring tension; could very well been that I had compression on only two cylinders. That was a big find (to clarify, I cranked the engine by hand for 10 minutes to watch valves...wasn't cranking the starter for 10 minutes).

Tonight I will check all things fuel as Robbie and others recommended. purchased the noid light (thanks Robbie), so will check both the harness, the injectors , and fuel pressure at the fuel rail tonight. If I find something wrong and fix, will attempt to start the bus, but if all is in working order, will move on to checking resistance readings.

Will provide an update later tonight.

Again, appreciate all of the support.
_________________
1976 Westy (aka Tripod)
2.0 liter FI solid lifters
212k miles

[sjbartnik]

If you think you're at TDC for #1 but when you go to pull the valve cover, you see that one of the valves for #1 is open, then you are not at TDC for #1. Keep in mind that the TDC mark on the pulley comes around TWICE per 4-stroke cycle, once when #1 is ready to fire (both valves on #1 closed) and once when #3 is ready to fire (at which point one of the #1 valves will be open).

Therefore you're either not at TDC for #1 when you think you are, and/or your plug wires are oriented incorrectly around the cap.

Start with item 1 then work through item 2.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650

[TrollFromDownBelow]

It appears the FI system is working properly:

- 40 PSI at the rail, and held it for several minutes
- Noid light blinked for all four FI harness leads. crimped the female spades to provide better contact (left bank blinked a little weaker than right)
- Injectors clicked nicely/crisply when i applied 9 volts of DC power

I replaced the plug wires too...not to try to fix anything, but the old ones had a one or two light rub spots on them.

Double checked static timing after I replaced the wires in case a bumped the dizzy.

Consensus is that I don't have the firing order/plug wires correct, so attempted to take some pics so people could see. I really do hope it is something this simple.

plug wires

more plug wires

orientation of rotor (timing cover mark for tdc not quite visible but does line up with the pulley)

# 1 cylinder (can feel lash on both intake and exhaust)

left bank for comparison purposes

_________________
1976 Westy (aka Tripod)
2.0 liter FI solid lifters
212k miles

[busdaddy]

A better pic of the coil connections would help, I think I see a problem but the angle is not quite right....
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

Слава Україні!

[sjbartnik]

Agree, the pic seems to show that the green wire from the condensor is going to the + side of the coil. If so, that's your problem.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650

[airschooled]

Mike, since you have six thousand details to keep track of, I'll throw some comforting thoughts your way…

Even if you had two cylinders with zero compression, the engine will still run. Here is a video of my recent FI conversion that had TWO dead cylinders at idle. (Both were bad injectors, a statistical anomaly for sure.)


Link



Even if all four injectors aren't firing, you should get a cough from the cold start valve.

The pop at key release tells us that there was something flammable in the engine Eliminate the ignition switch from the equation by running a wire from the battery positive terminal to the coil positive (15) terminal. If it starts, proceed to break in the camshaft! If it starts, you'll have to remove the wire to shut off the engine, big whoop.

Take a look at the points as you static time: when you rotate the engine clockwise, the points gap opens to trigger the spark. Make sure you didn't accidentally time the engine to when the points close; that has embarrassed me more than once.

On SecretSubmariner's new engine last year, we cranked a while before realizing that there was a large vacuum leak left over from previous work…

You'll get it.
Robbie
_________________
Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com