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loverofpeace
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2020
Posts: 71
Location: Czech Rep
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 Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:33 am Post subject: No clutch all of a sudden |
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Woke up this morning with the clutch pedal being completely dead. The brake fluid was very low, I’ve looked for leaks in the past (around wheels) and the pedals and have been unable to find any in either spot. Had someone pump the clutch and brakes while I was looking as well.
This happened for the first time about 2 months ago when I had the shop change out the starter. Not sure if it was a coincidence but as I was leaving the shop the clutch was completely dead then. The guys were saying it has nothing to do with the repair they did but after agreeing that I brought the car in driving fine they eventually bled the system and topped up the fluid and all was well until about a two weeks ago when it happened again. I’ve driven the car minimally since then (maybe 40km down some bumpy roads).
Where else I should look for leaks or do you guys think it could be something else?
Many thanks for any help! |
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WiboBusMan
Samba Member
Joined: September 26, 2009
Posts: 141
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:03 am Post subject: Re: No clutch all of the sudden |
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Explain what you mean by 'no clutch'. Grinding gears? Slipping clutch as in the van won't move?
You don't tell us what the pedal feels like: normal or mushy? Also, can you see if the clutch slave cylinder moves as you push the clutch pedal?
You say that you looked around the wheels. That's fine as far as it goes. I take it that you were looking at the inner side of the wheels?
Did you look at the clutch slave cylinder? Any signs of fluid in and around the pedals, including the floor below the pedals (brake and clutch master cylinders) ?
If not, follow each of the lines for both brakes and clutch all the way from the front to the component (5 end points: 2 brake calipers in front, 2 brake slave cylinders at rear and 1 clutch slave cylinder at transmission bell housing)
Finally, there is the unlikely possibility that the brake servo has a leak and that the fluid is being sucked into the vacuum line and eventually out the tailpipe.
W
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Science has sacrificed Truth on the altar of its narrative. |
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loverofpeace
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2020
Posts: 71
Location: Czech Rep
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:22 am Post subject: Re: No clutch all of the sudden |
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| WiboBusMan wrote: |
Explain what you mean by 'no clutch'. Grinding gears? Slipping clutch as in the van won't move?
You don't tell us what the pedal feels like: normal or mushy? Also, can you see if the clutch slave cylinder moves as you push the clutch pedal?
You say that you looked around the wheels. That's fine as far as it goes. I take it that you were looking at the inner side of the wheels?
Did you look at the clutch slave cylinder? Any signs of fluid in and around the pedals, including the floor below the pedals (brake and clutch master cylinders) ?
If not, follow each of the lines for both brakes and clutch all the way from the front to the component (5 end points: 2 brake calipers in front, 2 brake slave cylinders at rear and 1 clutch slave cylinder at transmission bell housing)
Finally, there is the unlikely possibility that the brake servo has a leak and that the fluid is being sucked into the vacuum line and eventually out the tailpipe.
W |
Hi W and thanks for the quick reply and your help.
I meant to say the clutch pedal is totally dead. In other words it goes all the way down to the floor without any engagement or pressure. I am unable to put the bus into gear as a result.
Once I add brake fluid and pump the clutch a few dozen times im able to get into gear and drive it but it’s definitely not smooth.
There’s no fluid on the floor nor on the inside of the wheels. I haven’t checked the slave cylinder, I’ll do that now and report back. |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32596
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:01 am Post subject: Re: No clutch all of the sudden |
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| Make sure you don't have fluid running down in the steering column area and disappearing beneath the carpet. Both the clutch master and slave can leak with time, the master having maybe twice the life of a the slave. |
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15144
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:43 am Post subject: Re: No clutch all of the sudden |
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also this happens when it's really cold out and the seals in the clutch slave contract a little..
what's your temperatures?
I figure clutch slave cylinders are on a ~10yr rotation in our colder climate where I live.. |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9605
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:49 am Post subject: Re: No clutch all of the sudden |
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| loverofpeace wrote: |
| This happened for the first time about 2 months ago when I had the shop change out the starter. Not sure if it was a coincidence but as I was leaving the shop the clutch was completely dead then. The guys were saying it has nothing to do with the repair they did but after agreeing that I brought the car in driving fine they eventually bled the system and topped up the fluid and ..... |
Other that both systems being on the same 30-40 year old car, its coincidence.
The starter & clutch are un-related, so messing the starter & clutch are totally un-related. I’m gonna guess that “the guys” at the shop gave you a clutch system diagnosis at that moment, looking around your van for leaks (and not finding any), probably told you that your clutch Master Cylinder was going out and will need to be changed soon.
A 30-40 year old van can have many systems on the brink of failure at the same time. I’m suprised they didn’t sign you up for a master cylinder replacement right there, although I can understand the dynamics. Where you are wondering if a shady mechanic caused the clutch problem to get another repair job. And vice-versa, where they could be leery of bringing in a customer with a 30-40 year old car with many systems on the brink of failure, and might think other unrelated systems are their responsibility.
Anyway you seem to be in need of a reliable mechanic who you can trust for your old van. Trust is everything (but skill & knowledge are important).
In any case you’ve come to the right place (theSamba) no money changes hands here, there’s loads of honesty, skill, knowledge- and everyone’s ready to help you find a good mechanic or DIY or both. Lots of members are in the same place as you, wanting to drive a charming old Vanagon but needing mechanical assistance to do so. DIY depends a lot on your natural ability with tools etc, and if you have a mentor around (a real person not just the internet).
Keep your wits about you - but be careful you don’t chase away any reliable mechanics. Loads of Vanagon owners have no reliable mechanic at all. Theres not many Vanagon mechanics left.
I’m pretty sure you need a Clutch Master Cylinder replacement. It “should be” a smaller(!) additional charge to replace the slave cylinder too at the same time. But replacing the slave cylinder is a pretty good DIY task.
Good luck with your van. As always we’ll try to help. Dumb questions are welcomed, because lots of other vanagon owners could have that same (not dumb!) question.
In the past there were some grumps who would beat up on new members. And a couple of them got booted out. It was a loss of years of Vanagon knowledge but they were kinda holding the forum hostage for their own little ego boost. But now - other members jump in to help, and don’t let the grumps puff themselves up like that. We wanna see you having success with your Vanagon.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:26 am Post subject: Re: No clutch all of the sudden |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| I’m pretty sure you need a Clutch Master Cylinder replacement. It “should be” a smaller(!) additional charge to replace the slave cylinder too at the same time. But replacing the slave cylinder is a pretty good DIY task. |
Considering the fluid loss and the report from the OP that the floor of the van under the clutch master is not a puddle, I would assume the issue is a leaking slave cylinder (which the OP has not checked yet). The clutch master and slave cylinders have wildly different service life expectancy (5 slaves die before the master...), so most likely the OP does not need to replace the clutch master. Just replace the clutch slave, bleed the system, and motor on for a few more years until the slave starts leaking again. |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:35 am Post subject: Re: No clutch all of the sudden |
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The clutch slave bellows can hold a surprisingly large amount of brake fluid without any visible signs that it's internally leaking.
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'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15144
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:04 am Post subject: Re: No clutch all of the sudden |
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poke it with a stick, and not when you are laying underneath it  |
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loverofpeace
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2020
Posts: 71
Location: Czech Rep
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:56 am Post subject: Re: No clutch all of a sudden |
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Thanks to everyone that replied! You are all very helpful and I am thankful to have this community by my side when things go wrong on the bus.
It is indeed the slave cylinder that is leaking, I had a look at it and it was completely covered in fluid, though when the clutch is pressed couldn’t see any more leaking out (guessing it’s only a few drops each time which would explain the time it takes for the brake fluid to go below minimum).
I am a bit relieved now that I have found this is the case.
I would love to do it myself but unfortunately I am in Italy now and I do not have a kit to bleed the system so I will most likely have to take it to a shop anyways. |
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loverofpeace
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2020
Posts: 71
Location: Czech Rep
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:01 am Post subject: Re: No clutch all of a sudden |
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Forgot to add the photo
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32596
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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