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dlb154
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2006
Posts: 359
Location: Reno, NV
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 Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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| I know it's entirely a different animal, but it would be great if VT also provided a remote start option... |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32625
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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big swifty
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2007
Posts: 246
Location: Formally in Republic of VT; now in Hollywood, FL
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
What happens if YOU fall victim to some virus or something or are suddenly out of the picture?
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My concern as well. I have been following the tracking threads for a while. When I lived in Vermont I wasn't as concerned with the van getting stolen. I Just moved to Florida where vehicle theft is more prevalent and have revived my interest.
The subscription price is certainly reasonable and any company can go tits up these days. Is there a redundant plan if you decide or are forced to exit?
_________________
Evan
1987 Vanagon Syncro // Westfalia pop-top graft // Factory new ALH. 11mm IP. AFN 110 RC 2,3,4 // S7 turbo// Titan P502's
2013 Golf 4d TDI. No mods. Yet.
[1991 Jetta coupe TD. Giles Superpump. Custom tall 5 speed. SOLD |
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Corwyn 
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009
Posts: 2238
Location: Olympia, Washington
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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While I admire the ingenuity and design, I have to wonder why one needs anything beyond a well-hidden kill switch?
_________________
'90 White Westy ("The Longship")
FAS Gen V 2.0
The Annual Baja Rally
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=604813&highlight=baja
"If anything's" gonna happen, it's gonna happen out there"
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vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 3098
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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| Corwyn wrote: |
| While I admire the ingenuity and design, I have to wonder why one needs anything beyond a well-hidden kill switch? |
Its the remember to turn it on thing...
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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fxr
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014
Posts: 2325
Location: Bay area CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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| vanis13 wrote: |
| Corwyn wrote: |
| While I admire the ingenuity and design, I have to wonder why one needs anything beyond a well-hidden kill switch? |
Its the remember to turn it on thing... |
But if you wire your kill switch such that it turns on (to KILL) every time you switch the ignition off, you don't have to remember anything, except where the momentary switch is that turns the kill switch off when you have the ignition on again.
So easy.
_________________
Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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owokie
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2003
Posts: 533
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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| fxr wrote: |
| vanis13 wrote: |
| Corwyn wrote: |
| While I admire the ingenuity and design, I have to wonder why one needs anything beyond a well-hidden kill switch? |
Its the remember to turn it on thing... |
But if you wire your kill switch such that it turns on (to KILL) every time you switch the ignition off, you don't have to remember anything, except where the momentary switch is that turns the kill switch off when you have the ignition on again.
So easy. |
Word. And Corwyn has a 50/50 chance that his shit won't start anyway even without the kill switch. Amiright?
In other news, better change that sig to the semiannual baja rally. |
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jwallis
Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2012
Posts: 569
Location: Austin
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:14 am Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
I think you are doing a great thing offering this.
I'm interested in a unit or two but there is some info I haven't found yet.
Whose cell network(s) are you using?
Which version of the 7000 SIM hardware are you using?
If I travel to distant countries will it still work as well?
What happens if YOU fall victim to some virus or something or are suddenly out of the picture?
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Good questions
- The cellular connectivity comes from Hologram.io which partners with networks all over the world, specifically AT&T and T-Mobile in the US. And I'll be honest, there have been some places where my beta testers had connectivity issues. That is part of why I offer a 60 day guarantee and the first step of installation is to just run power from the battery to make sure it connects and is happy.
- SIM7000A is for N. and S. America. One beta tester used a SIM7000G (global) and it seemed to work the same as the America version. The issue with being in another country might be sending text messages from your phone to the VT unit, which would be an American number. If you travel to distant countries, I don't know what happens. If someone wants to be a beta tester in Europe, that'd be cool. Realistically I was aiming for the US market and while I considered a lot of edge cases in testing, I decided international travel was out of scope.
- That is a totally valid concern. The two backed services VT uses have my credit card number and draw monthly. If they retire the service VT depends on, if 4G is retired, if other out of my control happen, there is a backup way of connecting where the VT user pays $2.50 / month and $.19 per text message.
Realistically most technology has a lifetime and must now be considered replaceable just like shocks or fuel lines. Most people change phones every few years. I will be very very unhappy if this solution doesn't work for a minimum of 4 years. I'm not going to lie and say it'll work forever. I suspect many tracking companies would happily tell that lie. If you would rather hear that, just pretend I said it. To be clear, I'm trying to be funny with that last part, it's really late and I should be asleep.
| jimf909 wrote: |
tencentlife, Rocky Mountain Westy, Christopher Schimke (links to their threads below)...
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Great ideas! I am friends with Abel of VanAlert fame, have some of Loogy's parts on my SWEET new (6 months old) wheels, and have partnered with Chris of uniWerks Design to provide hard start relays to anyone who needs one, because his appear to be the highest quality on the market.
| dlb154 wrote: |
| I know it's entirely a different animal, but it would be great if VT also provided a remote start option... |
You know, in theory that shouldn't be that tough... I think the hard part would be detecting when the engine was firing properly so the starter could be disengaged. I'll put it on the list for version 2, haha!
| big swifty wrote: |
My concern as well....
Is there a redundant plan if you decide or are forced to exit? |
See above, with the $2.50 / mo + $.19 per text message... If someone wanted to go that route, I could walk them through setup. I originally had this as an option on the website but there was a $50 increase in price for the unit itself since I would not make any money from the subscription - the subscription would be directly with Hologram.io and would not work on any of Hologram's HTTP services, just true text messages from your phone to the VT unit, and from the unit to your phone, which is why it costs $.19 per text message from the unit to your phone (from your phone to the unit is free). I have asked Hologram at least 3 times if they have any plan to end the HTTP service that VT is using, and they finally said it was very unlikely it because a big part of their business relies on it.
| djkeev wrote: |
It’s limitation is the need for cellular.
That being said you should expand your market to include any collectible or high value collector hobby.
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I figured this would sell mostly with people in big cities, esp SF, Portland, Seattle, where we're seeing all these thefts. Most of those vans never leave the city. I assume with no evidence whatsoever that most vans in a cellular-covered area don't leave that cellular-covered area.
I would love to expand to bugs, buses, ghias, etc. if it sells well for Vanagons. I don't know if those all get stolen as often as vans. But yeah, any classic car guy who knows the slightest bit about electrical could install a VT unit pretty easy.
| fxr wrote: |
But if you wire your kill switch such that it turns on (to KILL) every time |
A momentary switch is the right way to wire a kill switch, but so many people rely on the fuel pump instead of the starting line. And if you don't have a hard start relay, you better have a momentary switch that can handle 12+ Amps. I think most people (including me) use maintained vs a momentary on their manual kill switch. Also, I just think people are nervous with electricity. I'm just now getting comfortable with it, and I've friend a LOT of stuff in my day. I've learned that software is great because you can just try stuff, I always tell people on my team to just try stuff... with hardware that's a bad idea.
The whole scheduling aspect of Van Tracker is unique as far as I know, and it's the right solution for me, which is why I built it, and for others it just might not be the right solution. It makes more sense for the geofencing than for the kill switch. SPOT and others have geofencing, but how do you enable it? Do you have to manually turn the fence on every time you want it to be active?
_________________
TheVanTracker.com - Kill Switch + GPS Tracker + Door-open alerts, made specifically for the Vanagon!
50+ YouTube videos - brakes, bearings, CV joints, 1.9/2.1 cooling system, mods, Bostig and more... |
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jwallis
Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2012
Posts: 569
Location: Austin
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:53 am Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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For more on commands, watch the 2nd video (the 3rd and 4th are cool too) in this playlist:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8jriUZHZDEcFTrur6iq2xOjVX0ak21vv
Here's a typical screenshot:
_________________
TheVanTracker.com - Kill Switch + GPS Tracker + Door-open alerts, made specifically for the Vanagon!
50+ YouTube videos - brakes, bearings, CV joints, 1.9/2.1 cooling system, mods, Bostig and more...
Last edited by jwallis on Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:41 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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| jwallis wrote: |
| if you don't have a hard start relay, you better have a momentary switch that can handle 12+ Amps. I think most people (including me) use maintained vs a momentary on their manual kill switch. |
Comment:
I see this often on kill-switch discussions.
The 12+ampacity of the switch is an issue ONLY for the (highly unlikely) condition where you turn the ignition to start, and while holding the key over, THEN flip your killswitch on to make the starter crank.
The classical "hard start relay" or any $4 relay would offer a robust solution to cover this unlikely scenario.
But wasteful of effort as it would "never" happen.
And if it did, a normal 3A,5A switch may start to degrade after some finite number of times.
A least 10 times, maybe 50, 100, 1,000?
Who knows, or cares, 'cuz it won't happen.
It would not burst into flame, it would just degrade the switch contacts and you'd have to buy a new switch sooner (or change a silly habit).
OK, enough  of that.
Especially because a momentary button with a latching relay is the way to go.
I did this in a surf-truck that my daughter drove to California for college.
She has to turn the key to on, and then bump a hidden button behind the headliner up by the sunvisor.
The button is tiny, but she just bumps the headliner area with her left hand.
The truck goes to "safe mode" every time the ignition is switched off.
There's no remembering or forgetting to set the kill.
I still have a 'basic' hidden killswitch on my van, but I forget to set it.
I have to make an effort to remember to set it, actually.
About 50% of the times I set it, I forget, then sh*t a brick when it won't start.
Gonna get the momentary+latching method going before van season opens 2021.
I like the fuel pump as a cutout, because the starter cranks and makes noise, and adds to the perpetrator's nervousness, increasing the chance he'll just bail.
Some enterprising feller could make a controller run the fuel pump run for one second then shutoff, then even a pro car thief won't try to jump the fuel pump.
But that would really confuse a mechanic too....
I kinda like the idea of the horn pulsing, and a very bright interior light that illuminates the driver. Anything to make him just bail.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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jimf909
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7468
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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| Quote: |
| SPOT and others have geofencing, but how do you enable it? Do you have to manually turn the fence on every time you want it to be active? |
I don't know if the SPOT function is technically a geo-fence, but here's how it works:
- Every time the van has been stationary for 30 minutes (this time period can be user-set at 30 minutes or 12 hours) Spot will record a movement alert on the app. It will also send the Movement alert to up to 10 phone numbers or email addresses.
- As long as the van remains in motion Spot will record a Track on the app every 5 minutes (user defined at 5, 10, 30 or 60) based on plan and value selected.
- Once the van is stationary for five minutes Spot will record a Stop on the app and suspend tracking until the van moves again. If movement resumes w/in 30 minutes no Movement alert will be sent, if it's after 30 minutes a Movement alert will be sent.
In short, no action is needed to trigger a movement alert regardless of where it is stopped.
Spot records and/or messages four things, each with the location of the device:
- Movement (change of status from stopped to moving)
- Tracks (breadcrumbs)
- Stop
- Daily status; incl. power alert (line volts) or low battery alerts if running on 4AAA batteries
With the app I can see everywhere my van has been during selected dates. A side benefit of this is that I can see I really need to get down to SE Oregon.  (I'll ping you for tips, Sodo. Your 2020 trip there showed places I want to go to.)
_________________
- Jim
| Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
Last edited by jimf909 on Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jimf909
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7468
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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| fxr wrote: |
But if you wire your kill switch such that it turns on (to KILL) every time you switch the ignition off, you don't have to remember anything, except where the momentary switch is that turns the kill switch off when you have the ignition on again.
So easy. |
Of course this is the correct way to do this (not that it occurred to me before) and a good way to make using it part of muscle memory.
A horn switch rated at 15amps seems like a good option to put in the circuit.
https://www.amazon.com/10L0L-Button-Switch-Cover-Yamaha/dp/B08B3F8KFR
_________________
- Jim
| Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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fxr
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014
Posts: 2325
Location: Bay area CA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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You don't need a high-current switch, you're only switching the coil of a relay.
_________________
Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| I see this often on kill-switch discussions. |
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6832
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Once you cross the Mississippi and enter the vast prairies coverage begins to get spotty.
Enter into the Rockies and high deserts of the West coverage cannot be counted upon at all.
In These areas you are best served by a satellite tracking service.
Dave |
Having done one or two trips across the continent my Cell service of choice is AT&T. The reason being is that AT&T was the only service i received consistently outside of the big population centers (cities) or at least on the highways between Chicago and Boise for example
AT&T is the old Ma'Bell company and as the BELL monopoly they had installed all of the telephone lines in the country.
Verizon,T-Mobile/Sprint and just seemed like they put there service where they are going to make the most return which is the population centers.
All my internet when traveling comes by tethering my phone to the computer and it seems like I have internet almost everywhere...
Except in the Home Depot parking lot off Hwy595 and University Blvd. in Davie Florida even though there is a big AT&T building just down the road...go figure.
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There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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jwallis
Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2012
Posts: 569
Location: Austin
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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| fxr wrote: |
| You don't need a high-current switch, you're only switching the coil of a relay. |
True, *if you have a hard start relay, which should be installed along with fuel lines when any van is purchased.
| jimf909 wrote: |
I don't know if the SPOT function is technically a geo-fence, but here's how it works...
In short, no action is needed to trigger a movement alert regardless of where it is stopped.
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Ah, thank you, that answers my question. Van Tracker is specifically focused on security, so when it sends an alert, it's a big deal. SPOT's features are simply different, and are just better or worse depending on what you need. The tracking would be really fun for tracking a trip.
VT's tracking feature is called "Follow Mode" and is for use when your van has been stolen and you are literally following it. In this mode, VT sends location updates about every minute or so and includes location / speed / direction.
| Sodo wrote: |
| jwallis wrote: |
| if you don't have a hard start relay, you better have a momentary switch that can handle 12+ Amps. I think most people (including me) use maintained vs a momentary on their manual kill switch. |
Comment:
I see this often on kill-switch discussions.
The 12+ampacity of the switch is an issue ONLY for the (highly unlikely) condition where you turn the ignition to start, and while holding the key over, THEN flip your killswitch on to make the starter crank. |
According to the following posts, without a hard start relay, the current between the ignition switch and the starter solendoid is 10-11Amps steady state, and higher during the time it takes to close the starter solenoid:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4103289#4103289
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9308677#9308677
This is why I'd over-build using a momentary switch rated at a minimum of 12 Amps capacity. Installing a hard start relay is the correct way to get this down to < 1Amp. Then you could use a momentary switch with a rating of 2 Amps and probably be fine.
I do not understand some of what you're saying. I do not understand the need for a latching relay. I would simply use a hard start relay - as every Vanagon/Bug owner should - and put a momentary switch inline between the ignition switch and the hard start relay. You hold the momentary switch, use the key to crank the engine, when it's firing properly, let go of both.
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TheVanTracker.com - Kill Switch + GPS Tracker + Door-open alerts, made specifically for the Vanagon!
50+ YouTube videos - brakes, bearings, CV joints, 1.9/2.1 cooling system, mods, Bostig and more...
Last edited by jwallis on Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fxr
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014
Posts: 2325
Location: Bay area CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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Sodo was making the point that the switch's current rating is for the SWITCHING (especially the 'breaking' with reactive loads), not for steady-state, which is a much higher current - usually by an order of magnitude. So a small 2A rated switch , if made *before* cranking, doesn't need a hard-start relay.
That said, it's far, far better to have a hard-start relay just to take the high switching current away from the ignition switch, its main point of failure.
_________________
Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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kuecker2
Samba Member
Joined: September 13, 2019
Posts: 71
Location: Kansas City
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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| So, I am not sure, how do you install this? Where is it intended to be placed? |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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| jwallis wrote: |
| I do not understand the need for a latching relay. |
Latching relay 'resets' automatically to "safe mode" every time you shut the car off.
So you don't have to 'remember' to set it.
It's always set.
Bumping a (secret) momentary button tells the Van you are the approved person to start the van.
The button can be very tiny, and one tiny wire, switched (NO) to ground.
Easy to hide.
Behind the headliner is a good place.
A smart guy like Jwallis might figger out a 1 minute timer on it so if you re-start within 1 minute (for example) you don't have to bump the button. And then it's "safe" 61 seconds after shutting the engine off.
Always.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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jwallis
Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2012
Posts: 569
Location: Austin
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:23 am Post subject: Re: Van Tracker: Combination Kill Switch + Tracker + Movement Detect |
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| kuecker2 wrote: |
| So, I am not sure, how do you install this? Where is it intended to be placed? |
If you're asking about Van Tracker, the unit is about 3" x 4" x 1.5" tall. In my full camper it's deep in the cabinets. My beta testers put it under the bench seat. The unit has little feet you can screw to metal/wood wherever you install it (I actually use velcro in my van). The hardest part of the install is running wires around the van, but if you've ever installed a stereo system it's way easier than that!
If you're asking about a manual kill switch - boy there's a lot of options. Some people use a dummy switch on the instrument cluster (fog lamps, rear defrost), others put it somewhere under the seat, I think someone even used a magnetic switch so they could stick a magnet on a special spot on their dashboard to enable starting, which I thought was brilliant.
_________________
TheVanTracker.com - Kill Switch + GPS Tracker + Door-open alerts, made specifically for the Vanagon!
50+ YouTube videos - brakes, bearings, CV joints, 1.9/2.1 cooling system, mods, Bostig and more... |
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