stock bus 1.7 type IV build

[dlwilson]

So a couple years ago I picked up this 1977 bus cheap from a friend. It had no engine (long rambling story) but I planned to electrify it. I got as far as replacing the entire brake system except for booster so I could flat tow it to my storage garage, and I found a used electric motor and controller out of a Mazda Miata conversion. Then it sat while I worked on other projects. Three weeks ago I realized I was never going to do the conversion, and I bought a filthy Type 4 engine off Facebook Marketplace.

All the seller knew about the engine was that it was a type 4. He had bought it for his bus project, but had since found a fuel-injected one. According to the engine code and the internet it was a 1973 1.7 engine. The numbers on the case and the fan shroud matched.

I got it home and figured out how to mount it on my Harbor Freight engine stand.

I had worked on VW bugs back in the 1980s when I was in school and it was all we could afford. My last VW was a 1968 bus with the stock rebuilt 1600 dual port out of my first VW bug. Then I bought a Camaro and never looked back. I had never touched a Type 4 engine, because they were too expensive, but I began pulling the engine apart from memories of working on the Type 1s. Pretty quickly I realized I needed a book, so I got Tom Wilson's book.

The engine was full of mud dauber nests, but nothing was alive. I got the sheetmetal off pretty quickly. It was all there, slightly bent, and fllthy. No cooling flaps or thermostat. I soaked the tin in Purple Power, cleaned it with a pressure washer, and gave it to a friend who said he could sandblast it at work. I haven't gotten it back from him, but the photos he sent me look good.

I continued pulling it apart. It had a single Weber carb which didn't look too bad. The heat exchangers were rusted and the sheet metal was all torn up, and the insides filled with mud daubers. The muffler was rusted and torn too badly to use, but extractor-type exhaust was okay. I bagged and tagged everything. The flywheel was rusty, but looked useable. The piston tops were dirty but unmarked.

Finally, the moment of truth. I got the case split, and... number three rod bearing was the worst I've ever seen. There was no bearing material left, because it was all on the bottom of the case.

I pressure washed the case and heads, and then soda blasted them. It looked like a party at Scarface's house. The case looked okay, but all four of the exhaust valve ports had cracks. And two of the cam lobes were wiped out.

Over the Thanksgiving break I was driving home from Atlanta and stopped in Byron GA at Bug Eyed VW and went nuts. They took me back in the warehouse and we just walked around picking parts. I got seals, gaskets, lifters, oil sensor, and on and on. All of the little parts that I didn't want to have to buy over the internet. I also got a lot of non-engine stuff for the bus, like tie rods, window regulators, shocks, sliding door parts, etc, etc. Those guys were great.

I found a crank and machine shop just a few miles from my house that works on aircooled VW and Porsche stuff, as well as American engines. I carried the heads, crank, and rods out there. The verdict?

heads - could be welded, but the cost for that plus seats, guides, and valves would be more than new
crank - number three rod journal was surprisingly smooth, but far below what is available for bearings. it almost looked like it had been turned way down, but why?
rods - cheaper to buy new.

So back on the internet, and on the phone to Bug Eyed. I got a usable crank from eBay, rebuilt rods from another shop, heads and pistons and cylinders and cam from Bug Eyed. While I wait for delivery I've been busy. This weekend we went camping, and threw one of the exhaust manifolds in the campfire to see if it would melt off the aluminum. It did.

Today I made some parts so I could press the gears off the old crank.

When the crank arrives I'll take it and the flywheel back to the shop, and have them both turned. Then I can buy main bearings, and begin the assembly. I've got next week off from work, so I plan to tow the bus over to my garage here at the house, and spend the week putting parts on it, and doing as much engine assembly as possible. Hopefully I'll get the parts back from the machine shop quickly. I've got some friends who want to come hang out and help. Some are mechanically-minded, and some are not, so we will see how that goes.

After considerable thought I've decided not to pull the oil gallery plugs. I've blown them out with the pressure washer, with the soda blaster, with an air gun, and with a spray can of transmission cooler flush, and nothing has come out. I'm still debating on the cooling flaps. I'm in south Florida, so. Currently I'm thinking I'll get the flaps and fix them in the open position, but I may play it safe and buy the whole system. Other than that, everything will be all stock, all the time. I don't need lots of power, I want reliability, and don't want to have to figure out how to deviate anything from stock.

We'll see if I can update this thread.

[busdaddy]

Welcome!
Interesting build, you should post a project thread in the Baywindow bus forum with a link to this one so we can all follow along and help.

You really should pull all the gallery plugs, not because of possible trapped dirt, but due to the fact they like to blow out regularly, now's the time to tap the holes for pipe plugs.
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[nextgen]

Looks like you know more then you think. Liked the melting off the aluminum on the heaters boxes. Now you have a weird looking set of headers, and a nice amount of weight has been melted away.

I like 1700 as being the strongest of the Type IV engines especially if you keep in basic stock with just the good cam.

Also the pistons being dished do not look so dished. Which means nice safe compression for a cool running engine.Doing some flycutting to clean up the heads will add just a bit more to the compression, which is ok as long as it is just clean up cuts. Yes get the flaps and wire them open since you are Florida.

Just keep in mind, as long you don't put a sofa, fridge, bunk beads and a rock band in the bus you will be fine.

Lookers like a Sunroof, nice!!

Buses are escalating dramatically in price. Keep that in mind when you buy parts. Keep the body stock and it is money in the bank.
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[Clatter]

Not sure you got too far already,
But the parts to make that a 2.0 all drop right in,
If you’re buying them anyways..

See the motor build in my sig for a couple tips on these.

Looks like you’re off to a good start.
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[evanfrucht]

I'm not sure how similar the thermostat/cooling flaps are to ones on a Type 1, but I'm in Southern California and it's hot. Originally I thought "hell with the flaps," but now I'm taking the extra trouble to install a whole working thermostat assembly onto an aftermarket 36hp style dog house shroud. It wasn't cheap either, cost me $125 for all the parts, but it will give me peace of mind. Not only do they direct the air where I needs to go, but they also help the head heat up evenly and quickly and help prevent the head from cracking or warping on warmup.

Nice build, sounds satisfying and straightforward. Good work bringing it back to it's original glory!

I dont mean this as any sort of insult, but one thing I find funny is that you seem set on keeping this build really stock now, but you were about to attempt an electrified Mazda swap?
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder )

[dlwilson]

The stock is just in the engine. I didn't want to add any new work with possibility for error, like clearancing the case, and cutting the case and heads for bigger barrels. And having to rejet the carb. Well, maybe that's all there is.

Some of my past car projects have suffered from scope creep and schedule slipping, so I just want to get this done quickly. I'll either sell it back to the original owner, or drive it for a bit and pass it on to someone else who wants to the body and interior work.

Yes, it's a sunroof, but the only thing I have is the sunroof itself. No tracks or cables or gears or handle. I was just going to weld it up, but that seems unfair to the next owner. I need some way to seal it up so it can sit outside, but still have the sunroof restored at some point.

It looks like I can buy all new thermostat and flaps for $425. I guess I need to decide soon.

[dlwilson]

What's the right choice for distributor for this stock build? I thought I remembered taking off a 009 distributor, but when I was digging through the parts yesterday I found it was a rusty crusty stock vacuum advance. With points. [Edited: the bus has a Weber 36 DFAV]

I remember back in the day we all lusted after the 009, but we ran the stock stuff because we couldn't afford to buy anything else. So now that I have a job, what do I do? Clean up what I've got or buy new? I see that Pertronix makes a vacuum advance distributor for type 4.

[Edited: I guess I could have done my googe'ing before asking the question. I see a "Kuhltek 034 Distributor, Electronic Ignition with Vacuum Advance" which appears to be what I want. Is that it?]

What about the coil? I don't know if they go bad, but if they do, this one looks like it would be bad. Should I throw it back in there, or replace with a stock one? Or a performance one?

[Alstrup]

Hello, and welcome.
A couple of things, which have actually been covered several times. Once more doesnt hurt.

That carb set up is about the worst you can put on a type 4 if you want it to live and work well. Yes I know it is widely used in warmer climates, but that doesnt make it better. It - can - be dialed in to work fairly decent in warm climates, but I do not recommend it at all.

That header is too large for a 1700 and will only result in poorer power compared to something more appropriate. It IS however a good size for a 2 liter engine.

Since you are in the market for just about everything vital for that engine I definitely agree with the option of going 2 liter when you are at it. In the long run you will regret it if you don´t.
Building a proper 2 liter is actually easier than building a proper 1700 because "everything fits" meaning that there are many parts out there for a 2 liter, but not for a 1700.
As said many times before, the type 4 bus engines were seriusly underdeveloped from factory. Back then Volkswagen made some bad choices out of partly ignorance and partly finance (for the end user) On top of that it was seriusly misunderstood by mechanics at the time too, which only made it worse, resulting in situations like the one you have in your hands now.
It is a good thing that you opened the oil gallery and got that cleaned out too. Now you need to check lifter bores and bearing saddles to make sure the case is worth using again as is, or if it needs a line bore and maybe bushings in the lifter bores.

As for which parts to use. As I understand it you are basicly trying to rebuild it to stock or close to. Good. Take a peak around and look for peoples and our recommendations on close to stock 2 liter bus engines. If you spend your money right it will not be much different than building the 1700 back to stock, but you will get a muchbetter engine at the end of the day.
As for your question about ignition parts, I will not go into that until you have chosen induction.

Carry on
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[dlwilson]

[busdaddy]

There's nothing wrong with a 1.7, it's one of the strongest engines VW ever made. It likes it's revs though, don't think you are doing it any favors by lugging it. I'm assuming you still have the 002 transmission in the bus?, gear ratios play a fairly big part in swaps and stroke changes, not so much on a lighter bus, but it really shows on a fully loaded camper.

As for the sunroof here's the stuff you need:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2225796
Many sellers stock the cables, cable guides, winder gear and crank handle new, shop around.
Read this too: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=548239&highlight=sunroof
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[RalphWiggam]

Check the distributor part # on the oldvolks site. If yours is original send it out to one of the distributor guys on here for a full rebuild while you are doing other stuff. It will be worth the cost many times over when you are trying to figure out why your timing is jumping around.

You need to have all of the AMC head parts swapped out for quality ones...guides, seats, springs, valves, etc. Then you are good to go.

I rebuilt my 1.7L awhile back and left it as stock displacement. I have no regrets. Hoffman heads, 9590 cam, ~8:1 compression, swivel adjusters, steel pushrods, etc. Runs great and has plenty of power IMO.

[nextgen]

Ralph, as you said the 1.7 is, what I believe the best stock air-cooled engine. But I do recommend as you mentioned, if you anything unstock, it has to be the Cam.


Did many 1.7 engines and the difference with better then stock cam is quite noticeable.

It was in bugs and squarebacks. Forgot what cam but it idled great and came in at about 1500 rpm.

For a bugs I see the guys are giving you a few recommendations.

Don't close it up with out a cam, before I did start using them I had regrets.
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[raygreenwood]

I can bet from looking at the parts....no....that engine did not have that many miles ....with that carb and header.....in that configuration. Its most common that it came from the factory with twin carbs.....and drove a lot of miles and then was converted to a single carb.

And.....that single carb is the most probable reason for the cylinders looking like they are full of carbon mud.....and the cracked head.

That carb flat out sucks. On a "bus" configured.....low compression type 4.....you typically get two choices of how it runs and nothing in between. I have had many people offer me running type 4 engines with single carbs....many of them for cheap. Unless I can pull a head or they can guarantee how many miles and how its been run....off I turn all of them down.

So no matter what you do to it....it you leave that carb on....be prepared to only get offers for "core" value. To me.....thats a max of about $100.

The problem is that with long runners and no manifold heat....it either runs pig rich and only liveable at highway speeds and constant drive......or runs lean because you had to set it up that way for driveability....which is where burned valves and cracked heads come into play.

Also you need to post up picks of the cam.

The type 4 engine is not like a basic watercooled american car like a straight six of v8. It has to be done to a minimum level of "correct" or it contains the seeds of its own destruction.

Ray

[Lingwendil]

Personally my experience with a stock 1.7 with twin carbs was iffy- it ran smooth, but had to really rev up to feel like it was doing any real work in such a heavy vehicle as a bus. Definitely look at better carbs and a better cam. Especially if you are limiting yourself to the stock displacement.
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[dlwilson]

That is the first reasonable explanation I've seen of why single progressive carb is bad for type 4 engine. I just did the rebuild on the carb today. Would it be okay if I got this engine running on the single, and then went shopping for duals? I see there are pairs of 34 carbs, which I seem to recall was what my 73 Bug had for a stock single carb. But the Webers look so much cooler. Back in the 80s one of our local VW crew was able to come up with enough money to buy a pair of Webers, but he couldn't afford the intakes. He built his own out of 10" long straight tubing and homemade flanges, and put them on his single-port. He was the envy of everyone else in town as he revved it to the moon.

I'm glad you asked about the cam, because I've been wondering. It came with "HYD" painted on the gear. so of course my first thought was that it was for hydraulic lifters. I called the vendor, who said his supplier regrinds all of the cams they supply, and the "HYD" was left from something else. He assured me it was the correct stock cam for a 1.7L type 4 with solid lifters. But I'm still wondering.

Is there a way to tell? I've posted pictures below. The part number on the gear is 021 109 111 B, followed by VW symbol and 11H.

I also put up a pic of the carb just because, and the rods came today. No crank, though. Stupid USPS.

The carb. Soaked in some pre-OSHA DuPont 3924S cleaner, and then soda blasted. And reassembled with Red Line kit.

]

And rods

[sjbartnik]

I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet, but on the Type 4 engine you 100% need the cooling flaps and ideally the thermostat. The flap on the left side, when the thermostat opens, lowers itself to form a duct over the oil cooler that forces air through the oil cooler. If the flaps are missing then there is essentially nothing to duct cooling air through the oil cooler and it will take path of least resistance (which is not through the cooler).
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[raygreenwood]

[dlwilson]

[dlwilson]

[dlwilson]

One of the nice things about living along, since Elaine suddenly moved out in February, is that nobody cares if you put an engine case in the dishwasher. I'd always heard about this, and figured I would try it. The case had already been scrubbed with Purple Power, pressure washed, and then soda blasted. The dishwasher took off that last bit of dust. It's not perfect; there's still some dried grease way back in the outside crevices, but it looks clean enough to build.

Also, the crankshaft arrived today. It's from eBay, advertised as being out of a CB-code 1.7L engine (same as this one) with standard journals, but "might need a polish". The journals feel okay to me, but I have to take the flywheel to the machine shop to get it surfaced, so I'll see what they think about the crankshaft. Now I can order main bearings, rod bearings, and cam bearings, and I think I'll be ready for assembly.

Not the best packing job. But it seems okay. There is a piece of radiator hose on the crankshaft snout.