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joescoolcustoms
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006
Posts: 9054
Location: West By God Virginia
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 Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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I mounted a Turbo Intercooler in the spot where you have the Radiator. Not much happened do to little air movement, kind of stagnant dead air there. Fans helped, but not like it was reported to be (temp drop in/out). Fortunately the intercooler is just horsepower, not overall cooling.
The latest water cooled conversion is having cooling issues do to wind shear at speed over 55 mph. Have tried scoops, ducting and so forth into radiator mounted longitudinal. Next month I will change that rad out and mount in a larger unit with a larger scoop. Getting it ready for a cross country trip.
I suggest getting the Blue tooth adapter into your ecm so you can monitor the cooling via your phone in real time once you start testing. My experience is the temp rises rapidly with the Ecotec once it hits cooling capacity.
_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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sailtexas186548
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2014
Posts: 423
Location: Kemah, Tx
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| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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| joescoolcustoms wrote: |
I mounted a Turbo Intercooler in the spot where you have the Radiator. Not much happened do to little air movement, kind of stagnant dead air there. Fans helped, but not like it was reported to be (temp drop in/out). Fortunately the intercooler is just horsepower, not overall cooling.
The latest water cooled conversion is having cooling issues do to wind shear at speed over 55 mph. Have tried scoops, ducting and so forth into radiator mounted longitudinal. Next month I will change that rad out and mount in a larger unit with a larger scoop. Getting it ready for a cross country trip.
I suggest getting the Blue tooth adapter into your ecm so you can monitor the cooling via your phone in real time once you start testing. My experience is the temp rises rapidly with the Ecotec once it hits cooling capacity. |
do you mean like EcuTek or a similar product?
https://www.ecutek.com/ecu-connect
I was going to run a stand along coolant gauge but your idea sounds awesome for testing
Im not convinced the radiator placement will work, but I'm going to find out! haha
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it's more fun loud and dirty |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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| these ecotec's do have a funkey cooling system. I just changed the tstat in mine...fucking rubber seal in a thermostat...when they let go and they all do it throws the ecm in to a comode... if you can I would get a 180 thermost that dosent have a rubber seal in it. around it is ok but not the main seal. I get a stant for mine... and that fucking thing is made in china!!! and...it runs 10 degrees hotter with that china POS. leave it to gm to put a thermostat behind the engine....well yours is infront of the engine.above the bellhousing. mine has the oilcooler option witch makes it more of a bitch to change the tstat.( front engine rear drive roadster) |
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GS guy
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2007
Posts: 968
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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| joescoolcustoms wrote: |
I mounted a Turbo Intercooler in the spot where you have the Radiator. Not much happened do to little air movement, kind of stagnant dead air there. Fans helped, but not like it was reported to be (temp drop in/out). Fortunately the intercooler is just horsepower, not overall cooling.
The latest water cooled conversion is having cooling issues do to wind shear at speed over 55 mph. Have tried scoops, ducting and so forth into radiator mounted longitudinal. Next month I will change that rad out and mount in a larger unit with a larger scoop. Getting it ready for a cross country trip.
I suggest getting the Blue tooth adapter into your ecm so you can monitor the cooling via your phone in real time once you start testing. My experience is the temp rises rapidly with the Ecotec once it hits cooling capacity. |
My admittedly crude take on airflow is the tires act like curved but boxy "walls" facing directly into the airstream, creating bow waves of air in front of them. Some of that air is blown outward, and the other half is blown inward, under the chassis. Combining with the air already coming from the front/under the car, this creates a high pressure zone under the chassis. This "blows" upward at the rear of the chassis underneath the rear seat area of a fiberglass buggy, creating a high pressure zone in that area. It is well known (in the community) that on a Deserter GS - mid-engine buggy, which has an engine cover over the rear seat area mostly sealing the engine compartment from the cockpit, any openings from the engine compartment to cockpit will "blow" hot air into the cockpit. Even the air scoop on top of the engine cover blows hot air out at speed! Also to note, the Manxter using side-pod mounted radiators ducts the radiator exhaust to behind/over the rear tires - a low pressure area behind the "bow-wave". Something to think about when imagineering your cooling system airflow. You might have success allowing the high pressure air to blow upward with openings into the rear seat fiberglass, at the expense of having that hot air blow directly into your back-side. Who needs heated seats???!!! 
Jeff
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70's vintage Deserter GS buggy - undergoing transformation to Super GS! |
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sailtexas186548
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2014
Posts: 423
Location: Kemah, Tx
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:51 am Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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Welded in the cross member that will be a place to tie the transaxle down to, and serve a bar to protect the trans and mount the skid plate.If you look at my last post, you’ll see the transmission is only held down with All thread, it’s not anywhere near this piece so if it does get hit it won’t transfer the load/shock directly to the transaxle case, it will just bend up and the front of the transmission won’t be strapped down tight anymore.
Most recommendations I have found suggest 70% fan coverage, I went the most I could fit
One pusher on top, two pullers on bottom
It’s tight but it fits
Put the transmission in neutral and cut the shift rod to
Length
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it's more fun loud and dirty
Last edited by sailtexas186548 on Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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joescoolcustoms
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006
Posts: 9054
Location: West By God Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:53 am Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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| sailtexas186548 wrote: |
| joescoolcustoms wrote: |
I mounted a Turbo Intercooler in the spot where you have the Radiator. Not much happened do to little air movement, kind of stagnant dead air there. Fans helped, but not like it was reported to be (temp drop in/out). Fortunately the intercooler is just horsepower, not overall cooling.
The latest water cooled conversion is having cooling issues do to wind shear at speed over 55 mph. Have tried scoops, ducting and so forth into radiator mounted longitudinal. Next month I will change that rad out and mount in a larger unit with a larger scoop. Getting it ready for a cross country trip.
I suggest getting the Blue tooth adapter into your ecm so you can monitor the cooling via your phone in real time once you start testing. My experience is the temp rises rapidly with the Ecotec once it hits cooling capacity. |
do you mean like EcuTek or a similar product?
https://www.ecutek.com/ecu-connect
I was going to run a stand along coolant gauge but your idea sounds awesome for testing
Im not convinced the radiator placement will work, but I'm going to find out! haha |
Something similar to that. I found the direct link to the ECU through Blue Tooth to be very fast read out to changes. Where as the stand alone temp gauge was slower to respond by about 45 seconds, and was not as accurate even being a name brand, high quality gauge setup. I only use it for testing purposes and rely on the stand alone gauge now that we know the pattern the engine has for warm up, temp rise and fall so forth.
It also gives a lot of other info like inlet intake temp, which we found out was getting hot air from the radiator. Reversed the fan direction and cooled the intake air by 25* F, which slightly dropped the engine temp too.
We are looking to be able to run 75 mph for hours on end crossing the US, so nailing down the cooling is paramount. Next month I will drop in a larger (28%) capacity Rad with a larger scoop for the air ducted to it. Then test it.
_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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sailtexas186548
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2014
Posts: 423
Location: Kemah, Tx
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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Everything going together for the final time
A last bit of cage prep and paint
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joescoolcustoms
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006
Posts: 9054
Location: West By God Virginia
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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Sorry to be late commenting on this, but seal up that bellhousing area for Baja. Silt gets inside, gets around the throw out bearing and hangs it up holding the clutch disengaged. Pay close attention to the GM starter block off plate to seal it up too on the now passenger side of the engine.
_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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sailtexas186548
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2014
Posts: 423
Location: Kemah, Tx
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:19 am Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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| joescoolcustoms wrote: |
| Sorry to be late commenting on this, but seal up that bellhousing area for Baja. Silt gets inside, gets around the throw out bearing and hangs it up holding the clutch disengaged. Pay close attention to the GM starter block off plate to seal it up too on the now passenger side of the engine. |
That is an excellent idea! Not thinking the 2021 Mexican 1000 is in the cards for this year, but if/when I prep the car I will remember that tip
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sailtexas186548
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2014
Posts: 423
Location: Kemah, Tx
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:50 am Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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Another night of thrashing, getting close!
I filled the transaxle and engine with oil/filter before I installed them yesterday, it’s going to be really tricky to do it in car...
Painted the shifter rod, installed a new bushing, not really too bad of a job... I used a piece of pipe through the front tunnel inspection plate to drive the shift rod into the new bushing. It went in just fine, painted, without grease on the rod just a light coating of gear oil in the bushing. I did grease the portion of the rod that ride in The bushing (Unpainted).
I put the shifter in, and adjusted it so I can find all four gears pretty easy. The rebuilt transaxle is very tight so I’m sure I will need to readjust once it wears in a bit. Still need a reverse lockout spring/bolt!
I welded the MAF bung/slot onto an intake pipe. Not my finest welds but I haven’t welded aluminum in over a year and went right into the final piece without disaster so that’s a win?
Intake is JAMMED in there, the body contacts the elbow at the throttle body but that’s ok for now, I need to get a TB offset plate machined or something.
The maim cage moved a bit in the back where my fit up was poor, so i had to persuade the engine supports a bit...
Even then I had to cut/weld the plats at the engine to get the holes to line up
Got the rear cage on, moved all the bolts up to G8 1/2”.
Next was exhaust, added a heat Sheild
Installed, and yes it clears the body by .250”
Cut off the 3 bolt header flange and welded a a V-band to the collector. The exhaust is all stainless.
The final look
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sailtexas186548
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2014
Posts: 423
Location: Kemah, Tx
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| Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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Well I didn’t quite get it done before my trip, so this is the last update until
Next weekend.
I have the engine harness on, o2 sensor, maf, intake, all installed just missing radiator hoses and CVS/axles. A few wires (ignition, power, ground, fans need to be hooked up to the dash and bus bar)
The seats and belts are in, need to trim the belts they are way too long
I was about to install the fuel tank, so I checked the alignment and I have an issue with too much negative camber on the drivers side that I cannot adjust out... probably a bent upper arm... dammit
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sailtexas186548
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2014
Posts: 423
Location: Kemah, Tx
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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Well I was messing with the alignment and it appears that my lower torsion adjuster is a bit off to the drivers side, and I didn’t turn the adjusters far enough so the suspension is max “droop” aka all the way up static, so I need to cut the lower adjuster back out and shift it over, as well as turn it forward/down so I will be on the top spring pack and use that to set ride height, then just barely load the bottom spring giving me a progressive spring rate and a soft ride, with the option to stiffen it up as needed
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Cheeze
Samba Member
Joined: January 20, 2018
Posts: 30
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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| Nice looking build. Do JD2 dies fit in your bender. |
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sailtexas186548
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2014
Posts: 423
Location: Kemah, Tx
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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| Cheeze wrote: |
| Nice looking build. Do JD2 dies fit in your bender. |
Thank you
I don’t know for sure, but all of these benders LOOK very similar so it’s possible
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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| might need to do some glass work for clearance in a few places. fiber glass does tend to flop around a bit. also is there any where else you could put that intake filter? 1 dirt&debris, and 2 the heat off the raidiator. I dont know that Ive ever had a car that seemeded to be as much affected by weather temps as that 2.4 ecotec is. |
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1madmanx
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2007
Posts: 686
Location: Wilmington, NC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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| sailtexas186548 wrote: |
| joescoolcustoms wrote: |
I mounted a Turbo Intercooler in the spot where you have the Radiator. Not much happened do to little air movement, kind of stagnant dead air there. Fans helped, but not like it was reported to be (temp drop in/out). Fortunately the intercooler is just horsepower, not overall cooling.
The latest water cooled conversion is having cooling issues do to wind shear at speed over 55 mph. Have tried scoops, ducting and so forth into radiator mounted longitudinal. Next month I will change that rad out and mount in a larger unit with a larger scoop. Getting it ready for a cross country trip.
I suggest getting the Blue tooth adapter into your ecm so you can monitor the cooling via your phone in real time once you start testing. My experience is the temp rises rapidly with the Ecotec once it hits cooling capacity. |
do you mean like EcuTek or a similar product?
https://www.ecutek.com/ecu-connect
I was going to run a stand along coolant gauge but your idea sounds awesome for testing
Im not convinced the radiator placement will work, but I'm going to find out! haha |
This is the buggy joescoolcustoms is talking about.
The radiator that you see in the picture is rated at 400+ hp but airflow issues are causing a warmer running (above 65 mph) condition than what we want.
The ODB2 bluetooth reader that is being used is this one. It plugs directly into the ODB2 port and connects with a free app (which I'll be updating to the paid version) called Torque Lite. The app is available for Android and iphone.
Putting a scoop on the radiator improved the cooling a lot but at maximum "scoop" the engine is still running too warm for our purposes. You can see the read-out from the Torque app that the temp is 226 @ 75 mph (notice the RPMs also). This test was done over a 60 mile run at this speed with the outside temp ~75 degrees - at almost sea level. As Joe has mentioned, we will be putting a larger (~650 HP rated) radiator on to increase the surface area for cooling.
To Joe's point about gauges vs. the ODB2 reader: You can see I have an analog VDO temp gauge below the speedo. The Torque app is much more accurate and faster to react to changes.
Although I don't have a good picture to show, my intake air filter is in the same place (although turned in the opposite direction) as yours. You can see the intake temp here at speed (top right on the screen). With your fans "pulling" you can expect that your intake temp will be about the same if not higher because of dumping hot air directly onto the air filter. It will be higher (mine gets up to about 95-98 degrees) when stopped and the engine is idling - and fans are running. It does drop when you start moving - so there is air circulating over the top of the engine.
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Bud (1Madmanx)
Wilmington, NC
'68 Meyers Manx Dune Buggy M1996F826S
'66 Kombi Bus
'73 Thing
Visit my Galleries:
https://manxclub.com/forum/app.php/gallery/album/44 |
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sailtexas186548
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2014
Posts: 423
Location: Kemah, Tx
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:02 am Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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I’m really trying to avoid cutting the body until I’m certain it has to be done. I have .25” clearance or more to everything except the intake. I’m thinking a couple braces for the rear of the body right at the engine, and maybe at the dash should help, the rest of the body is very stiff with the cage tie in.
I plan to run the intake as-is for start up and shake down. it is tight and will need a canister style filter housing with some rerouting before it’s all said and done. I could rotate it up over the bell housing but that makes everything else harder to get at for testing
1madmanx - awesome info, thank you! Very nice build. I will order one of the obd adapters that is really neat. I can mount an old tablet for my dash and save a lot tedious work.
How much fan did you have on the first radiator set up?
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1madmanx
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2007
Posts: 686
Location: Wilmington, NC
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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| sailtexas186548 wrote: |
I plan to run the intake as-is for start up and shake down. it is tight and will need a canister style filter housing with some rerouting before it’s all said and done. I could rotate it up over the bell housing but that makes everything else harder to get at for testing
1madmanx - awesome info, thank you! Very nice build. I will order one of the obd adapters that is really neat. I can mount an old tablet for my dash and save a lot tedious work.
How much fan did you have on the first radiator set up? |
Your build is coming along very well. What we found when this project started is that there aren't a lot of examples of Ecotec conversions in a FG buggy, so each build is a bit of trial and error.
Here are pictures of the canister air filter I have (with an outer wares on it). Initially we tried to route it straight toward the rear of the buggy but the body interfered, and like you, I didn't want to hack on the body.
Here are some pictures of the radiator and fans. Through much experimenting we found that "pulling" air through the rad was better cooling than "blowing", so I am pulling from the outside (of the motor) toward the engine. I started with lower capacity fans and ended up with these. They are the highest rated fans I could find in this size: 10" (2350 cfm) and 8" (2400 cfm). When they kick on they absolutely drop the temp quickly - that is unless you are driving at a constant 75 mph. Around town and under 65 mph, I can drive all day with temps ~200/205 degrees.
I'll share another experiment I tried. I put a diverter board on my right nerf bar to direct whatever airflow there was coming down the side. I had this in-place while using the scoop. I never saw any evidence that this had any positive impact (reducing temps) at all.
I can't wait to see how yours performs. Additionally, if you make NORRA in 2022, this buggy will be there too as a chase vehicle.
Thanks,
Bud
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Bud (1Madmanx)
Wilmington, NC
'68 Meyers Manx Dune Buggy M1996F826S
'66 Kombi Bus
'73 Thing
Visit my Galleries:
https://manxclub.com/forum/app.php/gallery/album/44 |
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1madmanx
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Joined: August 13, 2007
Posts: 686
Location: Wilmington, NC
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hillmotorsports
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2014
Posts: 432
Location: Morrisburg, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Manx II “2-Face” Ecotec IRS Bus 091 |
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Looking good Bud...
How much popcorn did you go through while in amazement of a Master at work???
Out of curiosity do you have a before and after weight comparison?
We're hoping the international border gets reopened this year, too many of our US friends that we haven't seen in ages!
Paul and Rosemarie
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Rosemarie and Paul Hill
Morrisburg, Ontario
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