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Gurn Blanston
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2014
Posts: 339
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:50 pm Post subject: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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...on a naturally-aspirated Type 1 on 93 unleaded with no nitrous?
The largest carbs that will fit is 48 IDFs, right?
And the largest venturis for the 48 IDF is 40mm, right?
A 2442 with 46x37.5 CNC CB heads, an FK89, about 11:1 compression, and a 1-7/8" merged racing exhaust with a large-bore muffler? |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76911
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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How wide?
My 2180 with 5.4 rods and 48 IDAs fits in a close decklid.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Gurn Blanston
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2014
Posts: 339
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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| Glenn wrote: |
How wide?
My 2180 with 5.4 rods and 48 IDAs fits in a close decklid. |
Wow.
And good question.
I fancy the '58-'64 body style, if it matters.
I think I'm talking about a 94mm bore, with rods proportional to the stroke- I wouldn't want to build something with ridiculously short rods, just to be able to fit a pair of IDAs indoors... |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15303
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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A engine that big will not be able to breath in an early Bug with the solid deck lid closed.
10:1 is the most you can run on 93, but that is another can of worms then closing the deck lid.
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2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
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-Alex77-
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Joined: December 09, 2008
Posts: 513
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:04 am Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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| Gurn Blanston wrote: |
...on a naturally-aspirated Type 1 on 93 unleaded with no nitrous?
The largest carbs that will fit is 48 IDFs, right?
And the largest venturis for the 48 IDF is 40mm, right?
A 2442 with 46x37.5 CNC CB heads, an FK89, about 11:1 compression, and a 1-7/8" merged racing exhaust with a large-bore muffler? |
Probably that combo 210-225hp.
With 94mm bore JPM heads and cam 230-250hp and with 101.6mm bore 250-270hp
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jason
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2002
Posts: 3444
Location: Garage
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:23 am Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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| Use c pin pistons, makes engine narrow. |
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Lingwendil
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Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:37 am Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| A engine that big will not be able to breath in an early Bug with the solid deck lid closed. |
How about putting some holes in the firewall tin, opening up another under the license plate, maybe ducting in the fender wells.
I know my 1776 under a late decklid wont need it, but on the spare decklid I'm cleaning up I'm going to put five 2" holes under the plate for some extra cool air. It's free so why not? Plenty of folks do this on older cars with big engines.
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73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
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Alstrup
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Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7214
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:22 am Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
A engine that big will not be able to breath in an early Bug with the solid deck lid closed.
Exactly, unles you leave the front cover plate off and accept a good deal of debris in the engine compartement. And it will still not be really good. Its about the quality of the incoming air
10:1 is the most you can run on 93, but that is another can of worms then closing the deck lid.
Yup. But it cam/chamber/temperature related
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As said, you can use pistons with higher pin height to decrease engine width and still have a decent length rod.
As for whether the lid can close or not with IDA´s. With the right combination of manifolds and stacks it is definitely possible.
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:35 am Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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| Lingwendil wrote: |
| vwracerdave wrote: |
| A engine that big will not be able to breath in an early Bug with the solid deck lid closed. |
How about putting some holes in the firewall tin, opening up another under the license plate, maybe ducting in the fender wells.
I know my 1776 under a late decklid wont need it, but on the spare decklid I'm cleaning up I'm going to put five 2" holes under the plate for some extra cool air. It's free so why not? Plenty of folks do this on older cars with big engines. |
I'm going to do that too. Well, either some big holes behind license plate or I'm seriously considering adding some slots or louvers at the top sort of like a vert decklid. I think a propped open deck lid or hinge spacers look like crap.
My 2180 is narrower than stock... I'm using 5.4 rods. Head has a slight flycut and case was decked. I'm could have built it bigger and still stuffed it in, possibly even made it narrower. You can flycut, deck, trim jugs, angle or shorten intake manifolds. There is all kinds of stuff to be done to make a motor fit if one feels like taking the time to do it. A lot or people don't have patience for detail work or have to outsource all the fab work... then it becomes a bit of a hassle.
I havent installed the engine yet but you can bet I'm going to make it fit. My bug is a '67. I'm not sure when the engine bay size changed but I think it's only the really early ones likes oval windows and maybe late 50's models that are smaller.. I'm not quite sure.
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder )
Last edited by evanfrucht on Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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madmike
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Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:36 am Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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Couple venders in the classifides have Turbo motors that fit under the lid and they have more ponys then any Ida Motor  pump gas too, just add W.I.
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'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
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madmike
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Joined: July 11, 2005
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Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:38 am Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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Oops  question was for N/a ,,,
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'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:48 am Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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Basically the answer is: "YOU TELL US"
If you set you mind to it's not that hard.. I think most people either don't mind the shitty looking propped lid or are too lazy to care enough and that's why you see it so much.
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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74 Thing
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7391
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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You can just modify the tin that goes over the tranny for more air flow into the engine compartment.
I just cut mine off on the passenger side near the starter.
I drive a convertible and with the top down and dual carbs the carbs/heads will use all the air and the fan will not have enough unless you get more air into the engine compartment.
Obviously vents on decklids or propped or stand offs for the decklid are another way.
Just get 15 feet of small clear tubing from the hardware store and put one end in the engine compartment and the other on the passenger seat in a bottle of water. Start up the car and go for a drive. If the water gets sucked up into the tube you need more air. |
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mark tucker
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Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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| this all depends on your budget and the work you are willing to have done by somebody that knows what they are doing. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76911
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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| 74 Thing wrote: |
| I just cut mine off on the passenger side near the starter. |
Right by the #1 exhaust pipe. 
There's a reason for all that tin. It's to keep the hot air from the exhaust from the fan and heat from the exhaust below the engine.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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bugguy1967
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Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4341
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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"10:1 iS tHe MoSt YoU Can RuN oN 93 oCtAnE" 😂 Well I'm at 10.3: with a baby cam, soooo BOOM!
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bugguy1967
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Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4341
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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| Gurn Blanston wrote: |
...on a naturally-aspirated Type 1 on 93 unleaded with no nitrous?
The largest carbs that will fit is 48 IDFs, right?
And the largest venturis for the 48 IDF is 40mm, right?
A 2442 with 46x37.5 CNC CB heads, an FK89, about 11:1 compression, and a 1-7/8" merged racing exhaust with a large-bore muffler? |
Do you want to know what fits within a closed decklid, or how much horsepower the sedan vents can support? If the latter, then this posting went off-topic.
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vwracerdave
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Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15303
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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Somebody with deep pockets could build a 2800cc engine with 300+ N/A HP and put in in an early Bug with the closed decklid. The truth is that a mild 1915 with the stock dog house cooler & dual 40 IDF will run hot in an early Bug with a closed solid deck li
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2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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74 Thing
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Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7391
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| 74 Thing wrote: |
| I just cut mine off on the passenger side near the starter. |
Right by the #1 exhaust pipe. ;)
There's a reason for all that tin. It's to keep the hot air from the exhaust from the fan and heat from the exhaust below the engine. |
Yes, you are correct the tin is there for a reason, but have you done the tests like I have? This is a normal modification for convertibles. There are threads over on the STF if you want to learn more. You need extra air in the Thing with the top down with dual carbs running on the freeway for hours at a time. A little hot air is better than not enough air that is for sure. If you do not get extra air in you will be pulling over to cool off in a short distance in the summer. I drive my car daily. |
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74 Thing
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Posts: 7391
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: How much horsepower is possible with engine cover closed... |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| The truth is that a mild 1915 with the stock dog house cooler & dual 40 IDF will run hot in an early Bug with a closed solid deck li |
Exactly get the air in whether it be from the front tin or propping the decklid or other means. Some warm air is better than not enough air. |
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