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1776cc engine issues
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King Ruckus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:51 pm    Post subject: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

So I have a new 1776cc engine that I put into my 67 bug. It has stock 1600 heads and a 69 crank. It has duel 34 kadron carbs with the main jet set at 130 and the idle screw at 55. The fuel pump is a stock mechanical pump.

My problem is that the engine runs fine at idle and in first gear, but in second gear and above it bogs down under high rpm and has trouble accelerating.

It has a petronix distributor and flamethrower coil. I tried switching out the distributor with a 009 and a different coil with no benefit. (I know the 009 and coil work as they came off my old 1600)

I reset the timing and even had a friend set it a third time, but the problem remains.

A friend had some 50 idle screw jets that we threw in and the problem remained. I dont have any other main jet sizes, but was told 130 should be good for my engine size.

I pulled the #2 and #4 plugs and they had some carbon build up, but nothing extreme.

I also tested the pwr at the coil, 14.5, the alternator, 14.5, and the battery, 14.7.

everything on the engine is new.

This is stumping me and my local club so I thought I would post here and see if anyone had any idea's on what it could be.
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rcooled
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

Your jetting is fine. Could be a bad connector on one of the spark plug leads, or a bad or improperly-gapped plug. Pull the other two and have a look.

Kadron carbs don't like excessive fuel pressure...2-3 PSI is plenty. Your carbs could be getting overloaded at higher RPM causing them to run too rich and cause a miss.
If you're not sure what your fuel pump puts out, install a fuel pressure regulator ↓

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Adjustable-Fuel-Pressure-Regulator-1-4psi-30-804-p/30-804.htm
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

Wonder if it’s stumbling because the accelerator pump isn’t adjusted properly?
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King Ruckus
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

Ill pull the other plugs and take a look. Ill also check the current fuel pressure and if that doesnt work look at the accelerator pump.

thanks guys.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

Since it idles fine,.and is ok in first, then starts to bog down, make sure you are not running out of gas. Float levels set correct, pump pumping, no restrictions in the gas line.
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King Ruckus
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

You can drive around in higher gears at low rpm. Its when you try to accelerate that it gets bogged down. I opened up the carbs last week when I was poking around and both the bowls were full.

Still waiting on the weather to get better. Living in northern Washington in the winter means a lot of rainy days.
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rcooled
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

King Ruckus wrote:
Its when you try to accelerate that it gets bogged down.

After it bogs when you hit the gas, does it then smooth out and allow you to maintain a steady speed?

The accelerator pump discharge nozzles in Kadrons sometime need to be re-positioned slightly in the carb throat. The fuel stream should be aimed right at the edge of the throttle plate just as it's starting to open. The nozzle outlets also need to be positioned well above the venturi (narrowest part of the carb throat) to prevent fuel from being sucked out by the lower pressure in that area. This can lead to an overly-rich mixture at higher speeds.

The brass pump nozzles can be re-positioned by gently bending them by hand.

You can download complete Kadron tuning instructions here: http://www.kaddieshack.com/tuning-instructions.html

What's your ignition timing set at? It should be 28°-32° BTDC @ 3000 RPM and set using a strobe light. Let the timing at idle fall where it may.
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Rome
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

After the engine bogs during acceleration, once you hold the engine at a steady rpm does it at least run smoothly? That is, does the bogging occur mainly as you are applying throttle?

rcooled's advice is good and worth a look. About 20 years ago I used a technique explained on the Kadron tuning page at lowbugget.com for adjusting the accelerator pump lever on my Kads. Very simple to do, but you need to have the carb off the manifold. Doing that adjustment, as well as the discharge tube aiming per rcooled (was also explained there) helped smooth out my acceleration considerably. This was on a mostly stock 1600 dual-port, also with the 009 distrib.

What type of carb linkage are you using? On some linkages its possible that the carbs are running at the same speed at idle. As the throttle is opened, the linkage arms may be out of adjustment so that one carb opens slightly more than the other one, causing the engine to stumble. But those linkages tend to be the type that have actuation rods that come down from a horizontal crossbar. Kads are typically run either with the original Kad linkage, or upgraded to a Scat center stalk twist type.

Another possibility, though remote due to your all new parts, could be that the spark plug wires are arcing somewhere. You can run the engine at night in the dark and rev it. Any arcing would be visible where the spark is leaving the wire insulation due to an insulation break/crack, and seeking a ground path at the adjacent/nearby engine shrouding sheetmetal. I encountered this exact problem when I installed some "high performance" silicone plug wires on my mom's '89 Jetta and it behaved like your Beetle. I spotted the arcing at night in the driveway. Replaced the wires with new OEM VW ones next day and the problem went away.

Kadrons usually have the "40" designation, not "34". The '40" refers to the carb body throat diameter in millimeters. "34" carbs tend to be Weber ICT or the Dell'orto FRDs. Also some German Solex PDSIT for Type 2 with the 1700 cc "Type 4" engines.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

Any issue that might be starvation, I check two things:

Is the gas cap/tank venting properly?
Is the fuel tank strainer/metal line in the tunnel clogged?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

King Ruckus wrote:
I reset the timing and even had a friend set it a third time, but the problem remains.

Where have you set the ignition timing? Do either of your distributors have a vacuum canister? Pertronix makes both a vacuum advanced and non-vacuum OO9 clone distributor. You didn't specify which one you have. Either way, you should be able to get idle timing to 7BTDC and both the vacuum advance Pertronix or a 009 clone should run well at idle and lower rpms.
I'm hoping you didn't set your timing to the timing notch on your pulley without knowing what that mark means? Some pulley notches are 5ATDC. That would be way to retarded an ignition timing to use with a Pertronix or OO9 distributor.
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carcrazed
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

Sounds like timing. Is it advancing. I have the exact same set up except I am running 40/44 Kadron set up with 30mm venturies and it runs amazing. Solex carburetors like vacuum advance. I would try changing the venturies in your carbs and upping the jets a little. IMO I would look for some different carbs.
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TinCanFab
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

You've checked voltage at the coil. Have you checked fuel to the carbs? Makes no sense to fiddle with the carbs until you have verified pump pressure AND volume. Keep a fire extinguisher handy, pull off the fuel hose and see how fast it will fill up a bottle once you start cranking. It should fill it up very quickly. If that is good, put a pressure gauge to it, make sure it's putting out what the carbs want. Next, verify the needle/seats/floats are working correctly. I had the same symptom as you with IDF's. One needle/seat separated ond jammed the float up, causing it to run lean with no power on the highway. It was running on one carb. You've already messed with the coil and distributor and timing a bunch of times. Start at one end of the fuel system (the tank) and go from there. Don't just jump around. Drive it with the fuel cap off, is it the same? Then go to the tank outlet. Is it free and clear? Is your tank rusty? Can you blow through your fuel filter, or is it difficult? What about that hose under the tank? Is it kinked? The fuel line in the tunnel gets blocked like a bad artery over time with varnish, have you tried to blow through it?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

TinCanFab wrote:
You've checked voltage at the coil. Have you checked fuel to the carbs? Makes no sense to fiddle with the carbs until you have verified pump pressure AND volume. Keep a fire extinguisher handy, pull off the fuel hose and see how fast it will fill up a bottle once you start cranking. It should fill it up very quickly. If that is good, put a pressure gauge to it, make sure it's putting out what the carbs want. Next, verify the needle/seats/floats are working correctly. I had the same symptom as you with IDF's. One needle/seat separated ond jammed the float up, causing it to run lean with no power on the highway. It was running on one carb. You've already messed with the coil and distributor and timing a bunch of times. Start at one end of the fuel system (the tank) and go from there. Don't just jump around. Drive it with the fuel cap off, is it the same? Then go to the tank outlet. Is it free and clear? Is your tank rusty? Can you blow through your fuel filter, or is it difficult? What about that hose under the tank? Is it kinked? The fuel line in the tunnel gets blocked like a bad artery over time with varnish, have you tried to blow through it?


True...I agree after thinking about it. What he said.
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King Ruckus
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

Ok, the rain let up today and I picked up a fuel pressure tester from Autozone. Unfortunately its not the most accurate gauge, but it read right above 2PSI, maybe 3. It didnt change with higher rpm.

I also tried driving without the fuel tank cap on and there was no difference.

To answer some other questions. The 009 distributor does not have a vacuum advance, but the petronix does. There wasnt really any change between the two.

Both carb bowls have fuel and checked to see if they were shooting out fuel
while running and they were.

The current timing is set at 7degrees at idle and 28 at 3000rpm. The first time I set the timing I had it advanced a lot more and it seemed to like that, but the exhaust smelled rich. I unfortunately dont remember the exact setting as that was almost 2 months ago.

The fuel tank does not have any rust in it and the lines from the tank to the hardline were not changed, but worked fine before when I had the old 1600 installed. The fuel filter is spotless. I did notice while rummaging around that the fuel tank sending seal is not great. When I put pressure on top of the tank with my hand I can hear air escaping from the seal and get a whiff of fuel, so ill order a replacement.

To clarify on the issue. If I try to accelerate quickly it instantly bogs down, but if I slowly feather the gas it will slowly pick up speed and maintain that speed. There is a limit to this though, which is at higher rpm in 2nd gear.

What should I try next? Messing with the accelerator pump adjustment, or adding more advance to the timing. I would really like to leave the carbs on as I dont have a work bench and am doing everything out in the open in the back yard.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

I'm one of the people trying to help KR out and I even test drove his bug. Before he installed the motor, I helped him go through these used carbs by blowing all the circuits, cleaning the jets and testing the accelerator pumps. All seemed to be in working order.

There is no lean popping of any kind and the throttle plates don't seem to be leaking. When I test drove it, it reminded me of a weak or problematic ignition system. It's feels weak all around but gets worse as you speed up.

KR is going to swap out the plugs and wires from his working 1600. If that doesn't work, we might throw on my Kads to see if that makes a difference
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

Try dialing in more ignition advance. Really should be done with a strobe...my previous post has the spec. Try advancing to the upper part of the range.

If you're using points, double-check the gap (or dwell angle if you have a meter) and make sure the advance in the distributor is working freely.
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King Ruckus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

OK, the weather cooperated again and I tried some more stuff. Switched out spark plugs and plug wires with my old ones from my old engine, as I knew they worked, and there was no change to the engine bogging down. Spark plugs 1 and 3 were very black and sooty, while 2 and 4 were more gray. I then tried driving without the air cleaners on the carbs, as they are pretty scuzzy, and that seemed to help a little, but the main issue was still there. Ill order some new clean air filters. Next up I tried advancing the timing a little to a hair over 31 degrees at 3000rpm and it seemed to help a little more, but at 3000rpm the engine did get a little crackly. How much can I advance the timing before it might hurt the engine? Ive heard of the timing being set up to 40 degrees at 3000rpm, but that seems very extreme.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

You can go to 32° comfortably. Maybe 33°. Beyond that, unless you have semi-hemi heads you are at the limit. For mechanical advance.

Have you read this thread?
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=293837
It is great info for tuning carbs. Even if you don't have a "wideband".
The gold is in the first 5-10 pages.
After that, it kinda repeats questions over and over. I read it front to back a couple years ago and learned allot.
Then bought a wideband and even learned more on what my engine wanted for jetting and ignition timing.
Take the time to read the thread and absorb the offered info. It really helps!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

King Ruckus wrote:
...plugs 1 and 3 were very black and sooty...

OK, there’s a clue. Have these carbs been balanced & adjusted properly? Do you have the balance tube connected? Any leaks there? Both carbs have the same jetting, right? Hey, stranger things have happened... Confused

Quote:
...carbs...they are pretty scuzzy

Did you get them second-hand? When was the last time they were rebuilt, or at least cleaned?

Quote:
How much can I advance the timing before it might hurt the engine? Ive heard of the timing being set up to 40 degrees at 3000rpm, but that seems very extreme.

For a mild street motor, 32*BTDC, w/centrifugal advance all in, should be the upper limit. Vacuum line is plugged when timing SVDAs.

Over 40* total advance (in a no-load condition) could be be seen with an SVDA, if timing is checked with the vacuum line connected.
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King Ruckus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 1776cc engine issues Reply with quote

I have not read that thread. I'll have a look through.

There is a balance tube. the carbs were rebuilt right before installing them. They were adjusted correctly as I have a carb adjustment air pressure gauge and even had truckersmike help.

truckersmike had an idea that since the carbs were second hand that maybe the previous own drilled out the main jets. Unfortunately no one in my club has any spare jets so im going to go ahead and order some 120, 125, and 130 to see if that helps at all.
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