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Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild [SOLVED]
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T3TRIS
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:41 pm    Post subject: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild [SOLVED] Reply with quote

Hello, I just wrapped up our front end late last night. Replaced all bushings, ball joints, bearings, installed lifted springs and new shocks.
Today we joined a rover group to do some off-roading. Drove about 120 miles, including lots of forest gravel roads and pretty gnarly off-roading (that lift is amazing). I noticed during the day, while checking the torque on the lug nuts that they were pretty hot. I didnít think anything of it at the time.
Once we got back home, I hosed off the van (about 30min after getting home) and noticed that the front wheels were steaming and the water was drying from the center of the wheel. By the time I grabbed my IR thermometer, the center part of the wheel registered between 75į and 90į depending on where you measured. Outside temperature was around 45į. The brakes themselves were around 60į/70į (both front sides).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I drove the van again about 12 miles on the highway to dry it off. During that drive, I did a about 5 heavy brake test, toward the middle of the drive. The last part of the drive didnít need much braking. I measured the temperature again and they were much higher:
- front wheel hub: 149į
- axle spindle: 139į
- wheel surface between lug nuts: 132į
- stud: 134į
- CV joint (close to the steering knuckle): 123į
- steering knuckle (next to CV): 105į
- brake rotor and caliper (both): 78į
- rear wheel spindle: 66į

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Does this sound normal to anyone? I donít seem to remember the nuts getting that hot in the past. People seem to blame the brakes or bearings. The brakes seemed pretty cool in these tests so I am worried about the bearings I just installed...

Anybody with similar experience?

----------

Update 1/22/21:

You can read the few pages of back and forth to figure this one out, however it would appear that the culprit was that I overpacked the bearings with grease on the outside of the bearings following recommendations from an online blog I had found. Our passenger side wheel hub was about 20ļ hotter than the other side when doing a short 10 mile drive test (without using the brakes). I replaced both front wheel bearings and they now seem to run at the same temperature. My best guess is that the grease I packed, which is unnecessary on a Syncro wheel bearing as they are sealed, had nowhere to escape when pressing the wheel hub into the inner bearing race. That grease created pressure on the outside edge of the bearing, pushing the plastic sealing cage into the ball bearings themselves, creating pressure, resistance, heat and problems. This post has photos of the removed bearings that clearly show compromised grease on the passenger side bearing. This post explains the grease pressures that I suspect damaged the bearings.
Bottom line: Don't pack the sides of your syncro front wheel bearing with grease!!!
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T3TRIS

1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading


Last edited by T3TRIS on Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:17 pm; edited 4 times in total
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valvecovergasket
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

T3TRIS wrote:
Does this sound normal to anyone?


Not at all!

Are both front wheels doing this?
How do they free wheel if you've got them off the ground?

Steam when hosed down isn't right, and I probably wouldn't drive it until you sort out what's dragging, lest something get hot enough to melt or catch fire.
Get behind the wheels also and check the various rubber bits, 120 miles of this may not have done it many favors...
Over torqued axle nuts perhaps? Or improper install of the bearings? Those would be my first guesses if the brakes aren't dragging (and since they weren't messed with they're unlikely suspects)

Start with seeing how the wheels just spin when they're in the air it might be obvious
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:29 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

Water boils @ 212į so guessing you having steam is getting a bit too hot.


An obvious question is what did you torque the axle nut too? It should be 258 ft. lb. if I remember correctly.

A not so obvious question is how much grease did you use on the bearing?
Assuming you used enough to lubricate it, but did you use too much?

The front axle bearing is a dual row of balls fairly close together in the same single assembly as you know. So it is kinda hard to over grease it like you could the axle bearings on the regular Vanagon that has an Inner and an Outer bearing separated by an open space. Sometime people fill all that open space with grease thinking it is better to have too much then too little. Doing that just allows the grease to churn like butter and insulate the bearing not allowing the heat to escape. So a bearing can overheat, but it takes hours to build up heat. You did drive all day, but just 12 miles I do not think it would have gotten that hot.

If you jack the front end up while cold and spin both wheels is the new bearing s harder to turn?

Also did you take a temp reading off the other wheel to compare temps?
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T3TRIS
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:43 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

valvecovergasket wrote:
T3TRIS wrote:
Does this sound normal to anyone?


Not at all!

Are both front wheels doing this?
How do they free wheel if you've got them off the ground?

Steam when hosed down isn't right, and I probably wouldn't drive it until you sort out what's dragging, lest something get hot enough to melt or catch fire.
Get behind the wheels also and check the various rubber bits, 120 miles of this may not have done it many favors...
Over torqued axle nuts perhaps? Or improper install of the bearings? Those would be my first guesses if the brakes aren't dragging (and since they weren't messed with they're unlikely suspects)

Start with seeing how the wheels just spin when they're in the air it might be obvious


Great... thanks. Iíll have to try tomorrow.
Here are things I did that Iím not sure could or could not contribute:
- I loaded both sides of the bearing with high temp grease as mentioned in this page. When pressing the hub on the first side (canít remember which), some grease spat out and the seal seemed like it wanted to stick out ever so slightly. The hub still spun though with difficulty. Simone had mentioned that was normal just because of the tension on the seal.
- A long time ago I marked a breaker bar at 1.29ft because I weighed about 200lbs with clothes. I figured standing on it would give me the 258lb/ft of torque. I lost weight during COVID, believe it or not (probably 185lbs dressed), but instead of recalculating, I used the same mark and when the bar stopped, I just pushed downward a little bit more to add some weight. I canít imagine I messed it up that much it would be considered the wrong torque... but who knows.

Iíll spin the wheels tomorrow and report back. In the meantime, Iíd did spin the wheels while they were in the air before doing the driving today and they spun without much effort. That same wheel had a teeny bit of a brake pad drag, but I figured itíd center itself with the first hard brake (done early on purpose). Besides, I thought if the studs were that hot, the rotors should be just about the same but I could be completely wrong. As far as left vs right, in all honesty, Iím working on just a handful hours of sleep and I simply canít remember if both front wheels were comparable though I seem to remember the wheels drying the same way. I mostly focused on one side for temperature measurements.

Anyhow, I need to catch up on sleep now and will get back at this tomorrow. Thanks as always for the help!

(Also, continuously impressed with what Syncros can do, and so were the rover dudes!)

Steve M. wrote:
Water boils @ 212į so guessing you having steam is getting a bit too hot.


An obvious question is what did you torque the axle nut too? It should be 258 ft. lb. if I remember correctly.

A not so obvious question is how much grease did you use on the bearing?
Assuming you used enough to lubricate it, but did you use too much?

The front axle bearing is a dual row of balls fairly close together in the same single assembly as you know. So it is kinda hard to over grease it like you could the axle bearings on the regular Vanagon that has an Inner and an Outer bearing separated by an open space. Sometime people fill all that open space with grease thinking it is better to have too much then too little. Doing that just allows the grease to churn like butter and insulate the bearing not allowing the heat to escape. So a bearing can overheat, but it takes hours to build up heat. You did drive all day, but just 12 miles I do not think it would have gotten that hot.

If you jack the front end up while cold and spin both wheels is the new bearing s harder to turn?

Also did you take a temp reading off the other wheel to compare temps?


Thanks for your inputs Steve. They align with my suspicions and valvecovergasketís questions. I think my response to him is relevant to your questions. Iíll do more diagnosis m tomorrow.
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1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading


Last edited by T3TRIS on Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:31 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:45 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'd quickly remove the wheel and squrt other stuff with that IR gun.

But it's cool now, and you'd have to drive it again. Can you decouple and spin that wheel?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:47 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

T3TRIS wrote:

- A long time ago I marked a breaker bar at 1.29ft because I weighed about 200lbs with clothes. I figured standing on it would give me the 258lb/ft of torque. I lost weight during COVID, believe it or not (probably 185lbs dressed), but instead of recalculating, I used the same mark and when the bar stopped, I just pushed downward a little bit more to add some weight. I canít imagine I messed it up that much it would be considered the wrong torque... but who knows.



Exactly. "Who knows" go to an Auto parts store and see if they will loan you a proper torque wrench. Or you might be safer to get a Harbor Fright torque wrench since you do not know if the parts store loan has been dropped.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:51 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'd quickly remove the wheel and squrt other stuff with that IR gun.

But it's cool now, and you'd have to drive it again. Can you decouple and spin that wheel?


Thanks Tom, itís definitely cooled down now and so am I!
Iíll decouple and spin tomorrow for sure. Also that image is super helpful, wish I had it before!! So we really donít need to put grease on these outside of these bearings, huh? Would seem obvious but I think I was really misguided from this article...
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T3TRIS

1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading


Last edited by T3TRIS on Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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T3TRIS
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:54 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

Steve M. wrote:
T3TRIS wrote:

- A long time ago I marked a breaker bar at 1.29ft because I weighed about 200lbs with clothes. I figured standing on it would give me the 258lb/ft of torque. I lost weight during COVID, believe it or not (probably 185lbs dressed), but instead of recalculating, I used the same mark and when the bar stopped, I just pushed downward a little bit more to add some weight. I canít imagine I messed it up that much it would be considered the wrong torque... but who knows.



Exactly. "Who knows" go to an Auto parts store and see if they will loan you a proper torque wrench. Or you might be safer to get a Harbor Fright torque wrench since you do not know if the parts store loan has been dropped.


Iíll have to do that I guess. Or invest in a little more than a little piece of electrical tape at 1.29í on a breaker bar. But could I be that far off? It seems like Iím not the first one doing the weight thing? Or maybe itís just that people recommend doing that ďin theory...Ē itís pretty sensitive to over torquing if thatís the case too...
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1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:54 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

I would not drive it until you break torque and re-torque it with a known value.

1 ft. lb. of torque is a 1 lb. of weight at the end of a one foot handle. You cannot get 258 ft.lbs. with a one foot long torque wrench unless your the HULK.
There are formulas to add extension bars to a wrench handle to get the right amount, but you'll have to Google search for them.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:57 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

T3TRIS wrote:

Iíll have to do that I guess. Or invest in a little more than a little piece of electrical tape at 1.29í on a breaker bar. But could I be that far off? It seems like Iím not the first one doing the weight thing? Or maybe itís just that people recommend doing that ďin theory...Ē itís pretty sensitive to over torquing if thatís the case too...


The weight thing works, but you need to do the math to make it work right. Hence the formulas! Smile

Nowadays it seems you can cheat and not break pencil points like the old days!
https://www.norbar.com/Home/Torque-Wrench-Extension-Calculator
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Last edited by Steve M. on Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:59 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

Steve M. wrote:
I would not drive it until you break torque and re-torque it with a known value.

1 ft. lb. of torque is a 1 lb. of weight at the end of a one foot handle. You cannot get 258 ft.lbs. with a one foot long torque wrench unless your the HULK.
There are formulas to add extension bars to a wrench handle to get the right amount, but you'll have to Google search for them.


Breaking it loose and re-torquing is a good idea.

However, if 1lb at the end of a 1ft bar is 1lb/ft, then 258lbs at the end of a 1ft bar is 258lb/ft. So... wouldnít my 200lb of weight standing on a bar at 1.29ft be the same as if a 258lb person was standing on a bar at 1ft? Just the weight of our body. I seem to remember people claiming itís actually quite precise...
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1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:01 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

T3TRIS wrote:
Steve M. wrote:
I would not drive it until you break torque and re-torque it with a known value.

1 ft. lb. of torque is a 1 lb. of weight at the end of a one foot handle. You cannot get 258 ft.lbs. with a one foot long torque wrench unless your the HULK.
There are formulas to add extension bars to a wrench handle to get the right amount, but you'll have to Google search for them.


Breaking it loose and re-torquing is a good idea.

However, if 1lb at the end of a 1ft bar is 1lb/ft, then 258lbs at the end of a 1ft bar is 258lb/ft. So... wouldnít my 200lb of weight standing on a bar at 1.29ft be the same as if a 258lb person was standing on a bar at 1ft? Just the weight of our body. I seem to remember people claiming itís actually quite precise...


See my edit...bed time on the East Coast! Did you spin the wheel slowly while torquing it?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:09 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

None of this is making sense.
I can imagine "too loose" would allow rubbing and generate heat.

All of the grease is sealed inside the bearing.

Regarding the 258 ft-lbs: I cannot believe the torque being +/- 50 ft lbs would make any difference in heat.
Steve do you mean rotating the wheel (slowly) at the very early stages (less than 10 ft-lbs)? That makes some sense for ultimate ninja bearing assembly, but I can't imagine know how it could be related to the heat.

Take wheel and disc off, and turn it in the daylight, see if you can tell what's rubbing.

I think 149įF seems way too hot but I'd expect it to he hotter if causing damage. (fingers crossed)
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:47 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

95% itís brakes rather than bearing. When were the fluid and hoses last changed on the caliper?

149F isnít crazy hot for a disc brake but if water was sizzling rather than just steaming, itís too hot.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:00 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

Before you check temperatures again. Do the road test without the 5 hard stops.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

A brake disc can easily hit 1000 F. Iíve never fiddled with the grease in new bearings. I install them as they come out of the box. Drive it using only the hand brake.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:52 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
95% itís brakes rather than bearing. When were the fluid and hoses last changed on the caliper?


Seems like odd coincidence, and he didn't mess with the brakes he messed with the bearings and axle
All the brakes I've ever had lock up stank like burning pads which is a pretty unmistakable smell. Meanwhile all the bearings I've misadjusted did exactly what he's describing... (Usually rear bearings on mk1s and mk2s in my younger days Very Happy )

Based on what we know about how they were torqued my money's on overtightened axle nut.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

T3TRIS wrote:

installed lifted springs
...forest gravel roads and pretty gnarly off-roading (that lift is amazing). I noticed during the day, while checking the torque on the lug nuts that they were pretty hot. I didnít think anything of it at the time.


What is the distance from axle to fender lip?
20 inches is the max allowable.

At some number beyond 20" the CVs bind and get hot.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

Error analysis on your torque approach

Your foot is about 10 cm wide, and your 1.3 feet is about 40 cm long

Ergo have an uncertainty in torque of about 25% due to that method just from the length aspect

More importantly , stepping on a bar doesnít put it in pure torque , there will be a downward reduction in force which will introduce torque loss.

Get a torque wrench for this application.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:

All of the grease is sealed inside the bearing.

Steve do you mean rotating the wheel (slowly) at the very early stages (less than 10 ft-lbs)? That makes some sense for ultimate ninja bearing assembly, but I can't imagine know how it could be related to the heat.



I'd forgotten that it is a sealed bearing. Embarassed

It's not related to heat. It is related to torqueing a wheel bearing.
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