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T3TRIS
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Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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| korkwood wrote: |
I always put grease next to bearing and never ever had the "hot hubs".
Too much grease escapes thru seals but keeps dirt out of bearings
Just replaced bearing on one side, not because it was worn but 2 studs spun after taking my Syncro for tire work.
Dirt roads really mess up Vanagons...but also lead to better life |
Yeah I don’t think a little bit of grease would hurt but the amount I put in there by mistake couldn’t escape. There was quite a bit of it!
When I was pressing the hub into this bearing, the seal got pushed upward, out of place a little. I only noticed it once the seal was making contact with the hub itself, with the little softer flange compressed on the hub. At that point, the grease is contained and has nowhere to go. The hub is halfway pressed into the inner race, the thick part of the seal is still contained in the steering knuckle and the outer part of the seal is pushed against the hub. The grease is what pushed that seal outward, maybe trapped air helped too. That grease is now both pushing the seal outward but it’s already against the wheel hub. That grease is also trying to spew out of the softer lip of the seal but it’s compressed against the hub too. Now keep pressing with a 20-ton press (there’s no return at that point anyway) and the pressures keep building. Those pressures are building on the metal reinforced seal, which is now tight against the hub, but they are also building on the weaker bearing plastic cage. I’m almost positive that’s what failed. Again, very little grease spewed out of the assembly and the little that did probably came out before the hub was tight against the lifted seal.
You can see in this post the difference in grease colors from the bearing that had these pressures and higher temperatures after just 140 miles of driving.
Add to all this that the Bentley doesn’t mention anything about adding grease... it seems like the likely culprit. Again, not saying you can’t add any grease, but don’t pack it like I did!
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Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery
Last edited by T3TRIS on Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17153
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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General rule of thumb is to not use a torch on suspension parts. You could affect the hardness.
I learned a long time ago to use side cutters to remove cotter pins and brake springs. I watched a tech stab himself in the lip with his needle nose pliers fighting a brake spring.
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T3TRIS
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
General rule of thumb is to not use a torch on suspension parts. You could affect the hardness.
I learned a long time ago to use side cutters to remove cotter pins and brake springs. I watched a tech stab himself in the lip with his needle nose pliers fighting a brake spring. |
I’m pretty sure I didn’t have the torch there long enough to make a difference but that’s good to know! I’ve wondered if an induction coil would just work like a charm.
Heck, I did that with needle nose pliers trying to fold the cotter pin in place, not even removing it!
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Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17153
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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Sometimes heat is unavoidable. I like to exhaust all my other options. Grinding the slots for your puller was a much better method than what I see in the linked video. I didn't watch it though. I can walk the race off usually with my air hammer with a chisel bit. I have a lot of practice though.
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jberger
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Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 2476
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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| T3TRIS wrote: |
| MarkWard wrote: |
General rule of thumb is to not use a torch on suspension parts. You could affect the hardness.
I learned a long time ago to use side cutters to remove cotter pins and brake springs. I watched a tech stab himself in the lip with his needle nose pliers fighting a brake spring. |
I’m pretty sure I didn’t have the torch there long enough to make a difference but that’s good to know! I’ve wondered if an induction coil would just work like a charm.
Heck, I did that with needle nose pliers trying to fold the cotter pin in place, not even removing it! |
FWIW.. the video you linked was using an oxy\fuel torch. A simple propane torch will not do the trick. As stated above.. heat and suspension parts is not a good idea. In this scenario you are focusing heat on the wasted inner race though.. so no harm\no foul. I have popped races off using a dot or two of cherry red.
J |
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T3TRIS
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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That's all good to know! By the way, we went off-roading again yesterday, in the snow! We wanted to do the exact same easy/moderate trails we did last summer, but see how it was with a few inches of snow. It was a blast and the van performed admirably well again!
Yep... still need to fix our front heater blower...
I still can't believe I did all this temperature tests and replaced wheel bearings between last weekend's off-roading trip and this weekend's. It was colder and more rainy of course but we did dozens of highway miles to get back home at about 38º, driving 55/60mph and using the brakes. I measured the front hubs right away and they were each at about 95º and so were the front outer CV cages. To me, the overpacked grease was undeniably the problem.
By the way, this has more to do with the front end rebuild thread but we couldn't figure out where this loud rattle was coming from on our front end last weekend. Turned out our driver side upper control arm nut was backing off despite tightening that thing down. Happened again this past weekend. I really cinched it down on the trails and it has stayed put but I'm guessing it's time for new hardware.
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Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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4Gears4Tires
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Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 3048
Location: MD
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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Anecdotally, the front heater puts out way less heat than the rear heater. The rear heater used to torch the whole van. After yanking out and replacing the front blower motor, the amount of outputted heat is far less. Temp gauge at the radiator shows consistent temps before and after. It appears the coolant cools down significantly on it's way to the front.
Something to keep in mind if you are considering yanking the rear at the same time you fix the front.
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'87 Syncro
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T3TRIS
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
Anecdotally, the front heater puts out way less heat than the rear heater. The rear heater used to torch the whole van. After yanking out and replacing the front blower motor, the amount of outputted heat is far less. Temp gauge at the radiator shows consistent temps before and after. It appears the coolant cools down significantly on it's way to the front.
Something to keep in mind if you are considering yanking the rear at the same time you fix the front. |
We ripped out our rear heater a while back 
We're definitely not getting that much heat in the front heater but the bigger problem right now is that the blower hasn't worked ever since we've owned the van. This trip this weekend was actually the first time it was really inconvenient. Wiping off condensation while maneuvering on obstacles isn't ideal, especially with reduced visibility on the edges and side windows but we made it happen!
Our next major project is cleaning up behind the dash. I have a spare heater box I can rebuild before starting so that part should be relatively quick. Sound deadening, electrical cleanup, wiper maintenance, installing air recirculation and everything else is what will take the longest time. I was thinking about wrapping the front heater inlet hose from the engine block to the heater core in reflective bubble wrap, might help quite a bit really. You're right about the coolant though, we almost never see any temperature above 190º and that's measured on our EJ22 coolant manifold.
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Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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T3TRIS
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Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild [SOLVED] |
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FYI for those of you who were talking about using a proper torque wrench vs the weight/length method, I finally put a torque wrench on the nuts after having tightened them using my weight and driving a good 120 miles + lots of off-roading.
The left side tightened a teeny tiny bit more and the right side didn’t budge. I have no clue how much torque that tiny shift represents but I feel like I was pretty darn close!
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Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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?Waldo?
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild [SOLVED] |
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| A specific weight at a specific distance from the fulcrum with the bar parallel to the ground is more accurate than any torque wrench. The only challenges with that method are making sure you have the specific weight at the specific distance, and not falling. |
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Steve M.
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Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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| T3TRIS wrote: |
We're definitely not getting that much heat in the front heater but the bigger problem right now is that the blower hasn't worked ever since we've owned the van.
Our next major project is cleaning up behind the dash. I have a spare heater box I can rebuild before starting so that part should be relatively quick. |
While your rebuilding that heater box you can do the "Jeep Resistor Mod" that moves the Fan Resistor outside of the box so you can change without having to remove the box. Also figure out a way you can get lubricant to the Fan Motor bearing so that you can keep it quiet after the next ten years of use. There is the "Mullendore Port Mod" that makes a hole coming in through the front of the grill or you can do what I did and put a bottle cap over the end of the bearing with a tube running up to the defrost duct to squirt some Tri-Flow down into it. ( I do not like drilling holes in my Syncro!)
A last bit of info is that Brickwerks T3 in the UK sells the plastic tabs that hold the shaft for the vent flap in place. Sometimes they break! I order from Brickwerks on a Monday and the stuff is usually here by Friday of the same week.
https://www.brickwerks.co.uk/t3-parts/heating/heater-box-rod-retainer-t3-left.html
| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
It appears the coolant cools down significantly on it's way to the front.
Something to keep in mind if you are considering yanking the rear at the same time you fix the front. |
What about putting some foam pipe insulation on the Heater pipe going from the engine to the radiator or is that something you'd have to remove in the summer time because you want it to shed the heat!
The Vanistan Fresh Air Kit closes off the cold air coming in and adds a recirculation valve to recirculate the cabin air through the heater. That should make it a bit warmer.
https://intrepidoverland.com/shop/cabin-air-control/
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T3TRIS
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| A specific weight at a specific distance from the fulcrum with the bar parallel to the ground is more accurate than any torque wrench. The only challenges with that method are making sure you have the specific weight at the specific distance, and not falling. |
That was my belief too but others don’t necessarily agree 100% I guess. I do agree that it’s tough to get the weight in the exact position!
| Steve M. wrote: |
While your rebuilding that heater box you can do the "Jeep Resistor Mod" that moves the Fan Resistor outside of the box so you can change without having to remove the box. Also figure out a way you can get lubricant to the Fan Motor bearing so that you can keep it quiet after the next ten years of use. There is the "Mullendore Port Mod" that makes a hole coming in through the front of the grill or you can do what I did and put a bottle cap over the end of the bearing with a tube running up to the defrost duct to squirt some Tri-Flow down into it. ( I do not like drilling holes in my Syncro!)
A last bit of info is that Brickwerks T3 in the UK sells the plastic tabs that hold the shaft for the vent flap in place. Sometimes they break! I order from Brickwerks on a Monday and the stuff is usually here by Friday of the same week.
https://www.brickwerks.co.uk/t3-parts/heating/heater-box-rod-retainer-t3-left.html
| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
It appears the coolant cools down significantly on it's way to the front.
Something to keep in mind if you are considering yanking the rear at the same time you fix the front. |
What about putting some foam pipe insulation on the Heater pipe going from the engine to the radiator or is that something you'd have to remove in the summer time because you want it to shed the heat! |
Ha! Timely suggestion, I just received the Jeep resistor today.
Though I’m still not 100% decided between that and a PWM system. Sounds attractive but also sounds like some people have problems with them.
I have also looked into that hole in the front but I’m going to be installing an air recirculating flap (from Vanistan) so it’s not ideal. I like the bottle cap idea, I think I could probably figure out a way to have to tube come up through the ashtray.
Also, people seem to put that Jeep resistor on the left side but I remember reading something from someone mentioning that the right side works better (just make longer wires). Any input on that?
I’ve also thought about wrapping some Reflectix around the inlet pipe... I guess it’ll be a seasonal swap, though I can always see how it works. Those noodles might be easier to take on and off.
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Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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dobryan
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Posts: 16504
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild [SOLVED] |
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Interesting physics about torque and friction. The coefficient of friction of two surfaces is less for kinetic vs static situations. You can feel this if you are trying to push a cement block. It feels stuck but once you lunge into it you are able to keep it moving with less force than the initial lunge. That initial lunge had to overcome the static friction while the force needed to keep it moving just needs to overcome the kinetic friction. Same is true for nuts and bolts. When you tighten a nut or bolt to a value you are using torque (force on a moment arm) to tighten it against kinetic friction. It will take more torque to move the nut or bolt from that position because you have to overcome the static friction to get it to move. That ‘more torque’ may be small but it is noticeable for very high torque situations.
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'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
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