Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild [SOLVED]

[Steve M.]

[T3TRIS]

Wow. Thank you all for your input on this! So many possibilities and I love this community!

I’m not gonna quote each comment here but I’ll try to respond to all of them in no particular order.

I will lift the van and spin the wheels to see. I’ll also do a road test using only the parking brake, or at least as much as possible. I HOPE it’s the brakes!! I did a flush a few months ago and it was my first ever brake flush. Seems to have worked ok. I’ve never been satisfied with our brake performance. I still need to tinker with the rear (parking brake sucks). Replaced all brake components on the rear within the last year, pads and rotors for the front too. There’s less than a handful of thousands of miles on them. After a short road test, I’ll remove the components again and see what’s up. The hubs have always been tough to spin without the wheel OR brakes on, since the rebuild. Someone said before it was possibly just due to the bearing seal.

Tom, before everything settles, our van did sit around 20.25” or 20.5” from center of axle to fender lip. I measured again last night when we got back and we are at 19.75” after all that off-roading. I imagine the settling happened early in the drive. The front CV outer temperature was lower than the wheel hub and studs. I lifted the van before driving and spun the wheel at full extension to see if anything felt like it was binding or resisting and it felt fine. Again, that was before the first mile was put on the rebuild.

Regarding the torque, I put the breaker bar just above level with the ground and centered my foot on the tape, with my foot square to the breaker bar. I climbed on it holding the rain gutter and let the breaker bar spin slowly downward. It probably barely made it to the other side of level when it stopped. That’s when I pushed down a little more to compensate for my weight loss It’s no lab test of course and I agree, I should be using a proper torque wrench, but as Tom said, I’d be surprised to be more that 50lb/ft off! That being said, I have no idea if 200lb/ft would create heat or if 300lb/ft would create heat too, so yeah... I should use a torque wrench just to eliminate that possibility.

I did put quite a bit of grease on the outside of that bearing. I have no idea how I could try to remove some without pressing the wheel hub out.

I’ll do those tests later this afternoon but this additional information might help.
_________________
Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery

[Sodo]

We have heard 20 is the max, but this is from users over the years, not an OEM spec.
I set mine at 19.5.

===========

Ya know?
NOBODY IR-guns their lugnuts after a front-end rebuild.

I see a post in the "what did you do to your van today?"
"IR-gunned my lugnuts today."
Probably not a good tattoo but maybe a fun T-shirt.

Just like.... nobody looked at rebuilt gearbox drain magnets at the first 200 miles.
Maybe the new bearings just get warm as its bedding in.
Are the CVs new too?
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[vandroid]

Non mechanical type here, but I read a lot. From what I'm reading, you crushed the sealed bearing by over torquing it with a bar and not the right measuring tool.

[MarkWard]

Within reason, I don’t believe you can over torque the front cv joints. Factory parts are machined such that both inner races seat on each other. The hub seats on the outer race and the cv joint seats on the inner race. When you tighten it, it’s metal on metal surfaces. The high torque is to keep the entire assembly tight. At some point you are stretching the threads on the cv shaft if you go too tight. Not the hub, bearing or cv splines.

Disclaimer. I could also be wrong.
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☮️

[T3TRIS]

[T3TRIS]

I wonder if over packing the outer part of the bearing with grease, where it seats with the wheel hub, can push the orange bearing cage seal inward from grease pressure when pressing the hub in.
_________________
Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery

[MarkWard]

[Steve M.]

Just to be the devils advocate regarding IR Guns...it is probably not accurate!

Measure the temp of a ice cube to see if it is 32°. I tested 6 IR guns in the last 6 months and none of the guns were accurate measuring ice laying in an ice maker vs. a cooking thermometer laying in the ice makers I have here.
These were all low cost IR guns vs. the above $400.00 guns...the boss is too cheap to buy one of those!

A pot of boiling water also as part of the test. 212°.
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This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them.

[jimf909]

FWIW, the center of the wheels pretty consistently measure about 110 degrees F on my 2WD after a few hours of interstate driving and pulling into a rest stop in 70 - 80 ambient temps. I measure them with what appears to be the same temp gun as you.
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- Jim

[tjet]

I had a similar issue when I drove my 50 year old Corvette cross-country. The brakes were dragging, but they would only stick after you hit the brake pedal. They would eventually release after an hour or so. The root cause was the brake hoses. The inside was very restricted and would not allow pressure to release, like a check valve.

[T3TRIS]

Thanks for all the new inputs and ideas. To answer a few questions:
- I agree IR guns aren’t the best. I read that they suck on reflective surfaces. I imagine they would really suck on ice cubes and water! However mine seemed to show consistency with the wheel hubs, front and rear. The front was much hotter and steamed water sprayed on it. The rear was not nearly as hot. Steam was coming out of the rear wheel well but there are coolant hoses, engine parts and exhaust parts down there that really steamed. I was very surprised with the front though, come to think of it, it could have been the coolant hoses there too. The wheels did dry from the center though, as seen in the photo in the original post.

[Steve M.]

Before you press them out, break the torque and re-torque them with a good wrench to get the spec value and see how they do.
You have nothing to lose as opposed to having to spend time and new parts.
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them.

[T3TRIS]

[T3TRIS]

Drive test results for the 11 mile loop. I stopped at different intervals, measured the temperature right next to the axle nut and later on the CV cage. I didn’t use the brakes (it’s sketchy and dangerous in town!!). Outside temperature was between 47° and 49°

Results:

0.25 miles, less than 10mph
Right side: 66°

1.5 miles, no faster than 35mph
Right side: 90°
Left side: 70°

3.5 miles, no faster than 35mph
Right: 100°
Left: 80°

6.3 miles, about 2.5 miles at 60mph
Right: 126° (CV cage: 112°)
Left: 100° (CV cage: 115°)

8.5 miles, about 2 miles at 55mph
Right: 123° (CV cage: 115°)
Left: 100° (CV cage: 115°)

11 miles, 2.5 miles no faster than 40mph
Right: 119° (CV cage: 117°)
Left: 97° (CV cage: 111°)

I’m now back home and don’t wish to drive around without brakes anymore!! I also clearly need to make the rear brakes work better.

It seems that the hub heats up as soon as I start driving. It gets hotter and stays hot with slowish but still freeway speeds (only about 4 or 5 miles driven at freeway speeds). The right side (the one packed with more grease) is consistently about 20° warmer than the left. CV temps go up also but seem to be more comparable from left to right. The more I look at these numbers, the more I suspect the bearings and overpacked grease... apparently 20° worth of over packed grease if that’s the case.

I also redid the spin-wheels-by-hand-test before taking the wheels off, about 20min after getting home. As hard as I can, left side takes about 2 seconds to stop spinning, right side about 1 second until it stops with no discernible brake drag sound I could hear

Now onto the other tests.
_________________
Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery

[DanHoug]

okay, it's running 20F hotter than the other side. still not at a critical value in terms of lubricity so why not just drive it a whole bunch and see what shakes out. or off. sounds like you're committed to new bearings anyway so there's no loss to just driving it a bunch before you do this.
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[T3TRIS]

[valvecovergasket]

i think youve squeezed the bearings too tight

i think someone else also mentioned it - but break the torque on the axle nuts. get a torque wrench and go to the spec value w/o giving it a little extra kick
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MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com

gone, but not forgotten: '83 tdi westy - swap thread

[Abscate]

While the calipers are off see if you can move the pistons with finger pressure.
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.ssS!

[T3TRIS]

Took me a while to break the axle nuts loose because I wanted to see what it would take to make them loose. I marked my breaker bar every 4 inches, chocked the wheels, set the breaker bar level with the ground and stepped on it as gently as I could, horizontally from a ladder. I weigh in at 185lbs for this test.

Jennifer was kind enough to indulge me and take this silly photo! I did my best to really transfer from the ladder without adding any downward force besides my weight. I used one finger inside the van against the pillar to help me balance. I tried my best to place my feet centered on the marks, which is tough at 12” since there isn’t much space with the tire, tippy toe!

I messed up a little on the driver side and stepped first on the 16” mark. I was able to balance for a second or two before the nut started backing slowly. That should roughly equate to 246lb/ft to break the driver side loose.
On the passenger side (which is the more problematic side anyway), I started stepping on the 12” mark. Nothing happened. I stepped on it again, 3 times total with no move. I did the same 3 attempts at about 14”, then 16” with no move once again. Then I tried to move my step just one inch at a time. Again, 3 attempts at 17”, 18” and at 19”, the axle nut broke loose and the breaker bar hit the ground. The left side was so slow I was able to step off the breaker bar. The right side, I just landed on the ground. That equates to roughly 292lb/ft to break the nut loose. I don’t know if tightening a nut (especially locking ones with indentations like these) to a given torque requires more torque to break loose. But again, I, myself, am not a calibrated torque wrench but I believe this theory of body weight kinda works. And if so, as Sodo was pointing out, I was within ±50lb/ft.

I tried spinning the wheels directly after, same resistance. I spun them again with the nuts backed of 1/4 turn, 1/2 turn and a full turn, again, same resistance: 1 second for the right wheel to stop spinning, 2 seconds for the left side. Same thing after 2 and 3 full turns: no change in resistance. Interestingly, the driver side nut, the one that slowly came loose, is tougher to unscrew.
_________________
Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery