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Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware.
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Yabbadubbadoo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:41 am    Post subject: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

Do the large billet style distributors, like the MSD billet and Pertronix Flamethrower fit type 3 tinware? If not, what modifications would be necessary?
(Would like to see pics of any installations.)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

I would say no. Tot the tin, but the clearance to the fan housing. Never done it, and am guessing. Other than that its the height of it. Will you be able to close the hatch?
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VWporscheGT3
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

the big msd, cb performance, and pertronix ones will only fit if you are running an alternator kit... otherwise the generator is in the way. my buddy Elliot is running one on his car... and you have to clock the distributor gear to get it just so.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

the other option is to run a locked out distributor and the CB black box.
the timing is programmable. you do have to run a manifold vacuum line from each carb intake for the map sensor. And you set the timing once on install, check it with the timing light, and adjust it with the program after that.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I'm running an early big cap distributor without the vac can and locked out with points and condenser, and a Winterburn CDI unit under the back seat

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Yabbadubbadoo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

VWporscheGT3 wrote:
the big msd, cb performance, and pertronix ones will only fit if you are running an alternator kit... otherwise the generator is in the way. my buddy Elliot is running one on his car... and you have to clock the distributor gear to get it just so.


I dont quite follow what you mean by clocking in the distributor gear. Are you talking about cracking open the engine and moving the installed position of the gear on the crankshaft or somehow adjusting the pinion on the distributor itself? Or is it just the orientation of the distributor as you drop it into the case?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

Or you can get a blue tooth programable unit

https://store.concept1.ca/123-Distributor-Universal-123-TUNE%2B4-R-V-V/
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

Yabbadubbadoo wrote:
VWporscheGT3 wrote:
the big msd, cb performance, and pertronix ones will only fit if you are running an alternator kit... otherwise the generator is in the way. my buddy Elliot is running one on his car... and you have to clock the distributor gear to get it just so.


I dont quite follow what you mean by clocking in the distributor gear. Are you talking about cracking open the engine and moving the installed position of the gear on the crankshaft or somehow adjusting the pinion on the distributor itself? Or is it just the orientation of the distributor as you drop it into the case?

You can rotate the distributor a tooth as to where the rotor points for #1 cylinder when it drops into place.
Then you'll need to rotate the plug wires on the cap to match up.
It's done to get the vacuum canister & condenser etc to clear for adjusting timing.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

Mike Fisher wrote:
Yabbadubbadoo wrote:
VWporscheGT3 wrote:
the big msd, cb performance, and pertronix ones will only fit if you are running an alternator kit... otherwise the generator is in the way. my buddy Elliot is running one on his car... and you have to clock the distributor gear to get it just so.


I dont quite follow what you mean by clocking in the distributor gear. Are you talking about cracking open the engine and moving the installed position of the gear on the crankshaft or somehow adjusting the pinion on the distributor itself? Or is it just the orientation of the distributor as you drop it into the case?

You can rotate the distributor a tooth as to where the rotor points for #1 cylinder when it drops into place.
Then you'll need to rotate the plug wires on the cap to match up.
It's done to get the vacuum canister & condenser etc to clear for adjusting timing.


This
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Yabbadubbadoo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

Mike Fisher wrote:
Yabbadubbadoo wrote:
VWporscheGT3 wrote:
the big msd, cb performance, and pertronix ones will only fit if you are running an alternator kit... otherwise the generator is in the way. my buddy Elliot is running one on his car... and you have to clock the distributor gear to get it just so.


I dont quite follow what you mean by clocking in the distributor gear. Are you talking about cracking open the engine and moving the installed position of the gear on the crankshaft or somehow adjusting the pinion on the distributor itself? Or is it just the orientation of the distributor as you drop it into the case?

You can rotate the distributor a tooth as to where the rotor points for #1 cylinder when it drops into place.
Then you'll need to rotate the plug wires on the cap to match up.
It's done to get the vacuum canister & condenser etc to clear for adjusting timing.


Thanks Mike, I saw a paragraph about this in Tom Wilsons book on Aircooled engines about the differences in rotor orientation between type 1 and type 3. It's all starting to make sense now. Cheers Paolo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

Jason37 wrote:
Or you can get a blue tooth programable unit

https://store.concept1.ca/123-Distributor-Universal-123-TUNE%2B4-R-V-V/


Seems like CSP is also selling the 123 system under their own name.
I have been looking into these distributors and been a little hesitant to pull the trigger because I also wanted to add a CDI unit.

I do like the idea of a programmable ignition without additional wiring to a separate "black box" but Im unsure if there would be compatibility issues of matching a 123 distributor with a cdi unit. Could be an expensive experiment if I mismatched components.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

W1K1 wrote:
the other option is to run a locked out distributor and the CB black box.
.........
I'm running an early big cap distributor without the vac can and locked out with points and condenser, and a Winterburn CDI unit under the back seat

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Your setup looks really well thought out and a solid mix of components.
I checked out the Winterburn CDI. It looks like a nice bit of kit.

Winterburn's website states it's compatible with 123 ignition. Do you think that would be a good option if I wanted the Bluetooth programming + CDI without the additional wiring of a Black box?

What coil do you use?
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W1K1
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

Quote:
Your setup looks really well thought out and a solid mix of components.
I checked out the Winterburn CDI. It looks like a nice bit of kit.

Winterburn's website states it's compatible with 123 ignition. Do you think that would be a good option if I wanted the Bluetooth programming + CDI without the additional wiring of a Black box?

What coil do you use?


Yes the 123 sounds like a good setup too, it's 3 times the price of a black box here, so if you already have a good mechanical distributor.... I ran the winterburn with my bosch 010 previously as well, with no problems. You can always send Fred an E-mail, he is really helpful, and sent a bunch of info on the Winterburn, and ignitions in general. I'm running a Pertronix flamethrower coil with mine. You do need to run spark plugs without resistors with the winterburn, I killed a few last year.

The 123 vacuum set up wouldn't work on my 1968cc , the dells don't have enough vacuum signal, so the map sensor works better for me, so I can still adjust for lean cruising.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

W1K1 wrote:
the other option is to run a locked out distributor and the CB black box.
the timing is programmable. you do have to run a manifold vacuum line from each carb intake for the map sensor. And you set the timing once on install, check it with the timing light, and adjust it with the program after that.

Do the CB black box work with stock 32 PDSIT vacuum? Then it would be possible to run the stock distributor for stock look.
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W1K1
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

Quote:
Do the CB black box work with stock 32 PDSIT vacuum? Then it would be possible to run the stock distributor for stock look.


the black box uses manifold vacuum, so it will work with any carburator, you have to use the vacuum reference kit, or drill a small hole in your manifold and insert a tube, I just used brake line tubing and JB welded them in, simple job.
you then run it to the map sensor input on the black box. Mine is all hidden under the back seat
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2040.htm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

W1K1 wrote:
Quote:
Do the CB black box work with stock 32 PDSIT vacuum? Then it would be possible to run the stock distributor for stock look.


the black box uses manifold vacuum, so it will work with any carburator, you have to use the vacuum reference kit, or drill a small hole in your manifold and insert a tube, I just used brake line tubing and JB welded them in, simple job.
you then run it to the map sensor input on the black box. Mine is all hidden under the back seat
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2040.htm


You obviously gav your setup a lot of thought and time so im interested to know your thoughts on why you're running points and condenser as opposed to an electronic insert like pertronics.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

Quote:
You obviously gave your setup a lot of thought and time, so im interested to know your thoughts on why you're running points and condenser, as opposed to an electronic insert like pertronics.


The points just become a switch with the CDI so they will last forever. I could run the Pertonix module, I did have the pertronix in the 019 I was running before. I just didn't want to waste a perfectly good rebuilt 019 to lock out for the black box, and the early big cap distributor spreads out that more powerful spark, just like the billet distributors. I think I have $100-120 bucks in buying, rebuilding, and spare parts for two of the big cap distributors, so I have a spare.

the thread for the big cap Bosch
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699155&highlight=big+cap+bosch
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

I've rebuild and locked a few Big Cap for use with control boxes.

Points only, no condenser needed,
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

This is a great thread on the subject..
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=732536&highlight=ignition

Doesn't answer your question if it fits type 3 tin,
but with a bit of modification, anything can be made to work, right?

Next motor i build, some room for an "MSD" will be part of the program..
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
I've rebuild and locked a few Big Cap for use with control boxes.

Points only, no condenser needed,


Thanks Glenn if I head down this road I'll definitely be in touch. I am partial to the look of old school tuning parts and ideas. In some ways they suffer less from obsolescence than more modern aftermarket parts manufacturers even though they are technically obsolete.
Here's an example.
I bought a motor in pieces. It was ready for 94mm pistons and came with a bunch of parts. Needed sorting and putting back together but I have since pretty much changed everything about the build except the case.
It has in the box of parts what looks like an incomplete compufire ignition system.
I'd say I'm missing either an early incarnation of a CDI unit or maybe a rev limiter or some kind of programming box.
I have no idea what plugs into this plug.
I'd say this setup was done early 2000's but IMO its more obsolete now than a 40hp points distributor and bosch blue coil.

If anyone can identify exactly what box used this plug id really like to know. Its similar to a bunch of case sockets used in CDIs and rev limiters from Pertronix to MSD but not quite any of them.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Will it fit? Billet distributors and tinware. Reply with quote

That ignition you show looks like the Fairchild hall sensor setup to me.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It's missing the module/box that bolts to the firewall?
A black plastic box in a finned aluminum heat sink..

'79 CA only Bus, Aircooled Vanagon, and some early 1.9 Waterboxer too IIRC..?

Allied Signal/Fairchild - super reliable/bulletproof USA made.
Oddly enough, included as standard equipment on German motors.

One of the few electronic ignitions you can pull off a junkyard motor and run forever trouble-free.
Takes it's own harness, though..
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