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Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging
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krr916
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:54 am    Post subject: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

Hi all, relative newby on this forum. I have a 100k mile Syncro tin top that had issues with 1st and 2nd gear engagement, and inevitably would crunch gears when engaging, and I had to rev match if I wanted to have a chance, which to me spoke to fried synchros. It was frustrating to drive. I pulled the trigger and sent the gearbox down to Rancho for a (standard) rebuild. Upon re-installing, I adjusted the crank axial play, resurfaced the flywheel, put in a new pilot bearing, clutch and slave cylinder, locker actuator. I replaced the aluminum socket at the end of the shifter linkage, cleaned up the rear bushing. I didn't do much in the front shifter box because all the tabs in there looked good to me (I have seen ones that are fried).

I still have massive issues with 1st and 2nd gear engagement. I don't feel like it's synchro related, but I can hardly get them to engage, it's like pushing my way through metal obstacles that are not in a straight line to get either of those gears to engage. I've played around with the shifter alignment and can't seem to make any progress (I have done this on my other 2WD vanagon with no issues whatsoever, but it is possible I am missing something)

I really want to believe there's something I am doing wrong and not something Rancho overlooked. Any guidance on how to troubleshoot this? I have 75W90 redline oil in there. Had Valvoline 80W90 GL5 in there for about 100 miles and swapped it out suspecting that that could be an issue.

Pardon if there are threads on this topic that I have not yet found. My circumstances are a brand new rebuild.

Thanks,
Karl
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

Karl, this is a very common issue that is generally solved by adjusting the shift linkage at the splines and clamp. This adjustment throws a lot of folks off and I don't have any threads bookmarked how to adjust it. Once you figure it out, its really easy.

Anyhow, despite how it seems. When adjusted properly, Pushing the shift lever forward or backwards selects 3 and 4. Side movement is to your leg for 1,2 and reverse.

The other question is can you select the gears with the engine off? That might indicate another problem.
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krr916
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

Mark, well, that is one part of the shifter linkage I did not tackle. I think there's adequate description in Bentley on the process, so I'll follow it to a tee, see what I find and report back. Thanks for the tip!
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space
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

Had a similar problem on my 2wd turned out to be air in the line
Try pumping ur clutch as u shift tht would confirm
T
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
Karl, this is a very common issue that is generally solved by adjusting the shift linkage at the splines and clamp. This adjustment throws a lot of folks off.


Aside from ^^that^^, an additional point to understand:
A Syncro trans is a 2WD transmission with a 'compound-first transfer-case as a "strap-on".
The 6.03:1 granny, PLUS the 4wd output shaft is an add-on to a 2wd tranny.
It's not very strong either, it's a "strap-on".
Don't pull super-hard with it if you are pulling another vehicle. Go find someone with an F350
If you bump-start the van in granny, note that you can shove your granny right out of the 'transfer case".
Slight exaggeration - it just cracks the transfer case (which are NLA). It cracks it under that 6-bolt cover, which will then leak. And if you don't notice the leak, then all the oil runs out and other bad thing$$$$ happen.
The 'transfer case' is called "Low gear housing" on a Syncro
If you bust it you have to find a used one, and at this point they're all welded etc, scrap-bin items that are being recalled into service due to the NLA shortage.
So don't bust the one that you have.

As a Newby, welcome to TheSamba.
Note too... that when you get response from MarkWard you are in good hands.👍🏽
When you get a response from me, your reading comprehension will be tested because I often type such a book that you're more confused in the end, (sorry in advance).

I'm envious of the 100k parts in your transaxle.
Rancho likely installed a Weddle 3rd/4th hub that won't break, plus brand new virginal bearings.
Most people have a trans that had the original break-in lubricant all the way to the death (at 150k-200k).
You have the opportunity to start a proper maintenance regime on this young, valuable 100k mile gearset. One fitting of a rare, valuable antique (which it is) full of NLA parts.

==========

The Syncro's synchros are Vanagon 2WD. Synchros designed for a 4-speed 2wd are being asking them to spin up the heavy compound-first (and reverse) gears and heavy shafts, BIG heavy bearings for the 6.03:1.
It has more gears (and weight) than a 6-speed.
You have to give the little synchros more time,,,,
shift a little slower,,,
allow them to spin up the significantly heavier gear cluster.

My wife was having trouble, I thought she was going to break the shifter off at the base.
I tried to use 'words' but she just thought it was typical men.vs.woman mechanical blah-blah-blah.
So then I showed her driving it myself, shifting smooth and effortlessly using one finger on the knob.
Just taking a tiny bit more time to change gears.
She was thinking it just took more force, she had to go in HOT, get the force up ASAP.
Which made it worse.
She slowed down a little and it shifted perfect.👍🏽👍🏽

It's just a very slight delay, like "half a second"? I don't know much shorter it is, but try a half-a-second.
There's nothing you can do about this delay.
Another friend (very very experienced Syncro owner) says:
"you have to shift a Syncro with just two fingers".

Trying to shift like a Toyota will wear out your synchros, grinding up your dogs and contaminate your lubricant. It fatigues your gearshift lever that (many Syncro owners) will bust off at the base at some point.

Very slightly slower, almost unnoticeable.
Consider you will be one step ahead of the game for when you become an old fart.

If you haven't had enough, see this other thread which a diagram of a Syncro trans:
Syncro transaxle shifts "slower" than 2WD transaxle
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Ahwahnee
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

Failure of the ball & cup fitting that operates the arm on the 2WD trans caused problems with 1 & 2 on mine. Don't know if Syncros are similar in this regard.

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korfmach
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

Is the 1-2 shift issue something that happens all the time, or just when the trans is cold? I have a (2WD) Rancho rebuild in my van, and the 1-2 shifts during the first few minutes of driving (even on a warm morning) are rocky. I've been told this is an innate characteristic of rebuilds since the components are reinforced and the sychros are not really functional at low trans fluid temps.

Sorry if that's an obvious question...just my $0.02.
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

korfmach wrote:
Is the 1-2 shift issue something that happens all the time, or just when the trans is cold? I have a (2WD) Rancho rebuild in my van, and the 1-2 shifts during the first few minutes of driving (even on a warm morning) are rocky. I've been told this is an innate characteristic of rebuilds since the components are reinforced and the sychros are not really functional at low trans fluid temps.

Sorry if that's an obvious question...just my $0.02.


^^^^

That's bullshit. every trans i have had done by Matt Steedle shifts like butter. every manual is a bit stiff when ice cold ( like seriously, winter weather) but even so, running for 5 mins before you take off in the dead of winter Matt's transmissions shift easily.

his transmissions are also the only rebuilds i can slip it into 1st at 10-15mph while down shifting
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
every trans i have had done by Matt Steedle shifts like butter.


.....like butter (when it's me shifting it).

Vanagon trans shifted by a person who knows how to shift Vanagons, shift better than Vanagon trans shifted my people who do NOT know how to shift Vanagons.

Just a very slight delay makes all the difference.
With a Syncro trans, slightly more delay.

Not for every trans or or every rebuild or every gear or every clutch or every gear oil or every driver or every cold temperature etc.
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....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb


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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

sorry, i won't buy that.

anyone who can legitimately drive a manual has an expectation on how a transmission should feel. there should be no trick other than explaining how the reverse lockout works.

that said...

I have had hours and hours of conversations with Matt Steedle, Ben at Benco and Rick Long before he retired about shifting.

95% of the time someone has a shifting issue it's due to the installer NOT 100% going thru the shift linkage and making sure it's dialed in to the 9's both in terms of adjustment and worn parts.

every bay trans i do i end up spending an hour or so on just rebuilding the shifter and the locator pin let alone bushings, couplers etc.

with Matt's transmissions you can literally blow on the shifter and it slips in. Benco's are notchy in all the gears. Matt told me his secret and it's why his transmissions aren't cheap. I will happily pay Matt the extra loot to have him do his thing....

any well built trans should let you row thru the gears like you're running the 1/4 mile.
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
sorry, i won't buy that.

anyone who can legitimately drive a manual has an expectation on how a transmission should feel. there should be no trick other than explaining how the reverse lockout works.

that said...


I bet Kiichiro Toyoda said that.
But not the feller who designed the Vanagon trans.
That feller said "we made the trans, YOU have learn how to shift it".

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
Matt told me his secret and it's why his transmissions aren't cheap. I will happily pay Matt the extra loot to have him do his thing....


I think I know what trick you are talking about there, it takes time and a desire for the job done the best it can be done. Attn to detail on the synchros suggests attention to detail in the rest of the trans too, and thats worth paying for.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

dunno. my wife has had the pleasure of driving stick since her dad shoved her in a diesel dasher, then rabbit. she can shift all of my buses just fine.

i know what you're saying but lets be real.... do you think that VW trained their sales dept on "our transmissions suck balls, this is how you have to drive them"?

vw would have never sold a manual trans car ever. it's a combination of questionable rebuilds and poor linkages that cause 99% of these issues. i can't tell you how many people i have done transmission work for have had their eyes glaze over when i tell them if we're doing a trans, it's getting a full shifter rebuild, end of story.

every one i have done has shifted perfect out of the gate. there are reasons people send me stuff from all over the US and Canada
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
i know what you're saying but lets be real.... do you think that VW trained their sales dept on "our transmissions suck balls, this is how you have to drive them"?


Maybe VW America.
Germans don't talk like that.
Germans say "this is how you must drive it". Wink

Well VW did spec GL4 for years after GL5 came on the market.
I've heard GL4 shifts better 'cuz the synchros punch thru the GL4 oil film easier and grip the cones.

VW has a service bulletin to lower the oil level 15mm below the filler level hole "to ease shifting". (it;s in the bentley too)
This suggests VW were getting complaints about Vanagon shifting.

And they tell you NOT to change the gear oil, prob scared you might put GL5 in it while its still under factory warranty??? A wild guess.

These Steedle trannies that shift like butter, is that with GL4?
Prob OK for OEM engine sizes....

As for me....I've got an over-engined tranny, I'll shift a little slower to use GL5.

Agreed on the full shifter rebuild - the vans are old. I wouldn't want transaxle come-backs due to shifter system worn out.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

Matt uses and a quote: "the cheapest shit i can get at walmart" Laughing

Matt's a funny guy. I always press him for what you use. I have used GL4 and 5 in his boxes...no difference. Lucas, Valvoline, what's the ancient shit..sta-lube? used that too.

all shift the same. he basically builds these to be idiot proof in terms of oil. he's not a fan of some of the high end oils... 'waste of money' is what he tells me.

basically as long as you don't put sand in it, they (i have done about 8-10 of his boxes) all shift the same.

i like the guy. he does good work. 1 man show so long wait times but worth it.
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:05 am    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
i know what you're saying but lets be real.... do you think that VW trained their sales dept on "our transmissions suck balls, this is how you have to drive them"?


Maybe VW America.
Germans don't talk like that.
Germans say "this is how you must drive it". Wink

Well VW did spec GL4 for years after GL5 came on the market.
I've heard GL4 shifts better 'cuz the synchros punch thru the GL4 oil film easier and grip the cones.

VW has a service bulletin to lower the oil level 15mm below the filler level hole "to ease shifting". (it;s in the bentley too)
This suggests VW were getting complaints about Vanagon shifting.

And they tell you NOT to change the gear oil, prob scared you might put GL5 in it while its still under factory warranty??? A wild guess.

These Steedle trannies that shift like butter, is that with GL4?
Prob OK for OEM engine sizes....

As for me....I've got an over-engined tranny, I'll shift a little slower to use GL5.

Agreed on the full shifter rebuild - the vans are old. I wouldn't want transaxle come-backs due to shifter system worn out.


I have a 5spd with weddle 0.74 and a factory LSD. Replaced all synchros with moly coated ones.
I have used Castrol Syntrans Transaxle 75W-90 before which is a GL4+ rated oil, but has no LSD additives. Shifting was smooth both cold and hot.
Later last year as Weddle suggest 75W-140, all LSD oils I can buy here are GL5, I changed it to 4 litres of Motul Gear Competition 75W-140. Which is a GL5 racing oil with a big load of additive coctail. With this oil shifting from 1st to 2nd or in cold is really hard, 3rd to 4th is often crunchy. No problems when hot, but under 15C its almost impossible and often have to almost stop to put in 2nd.
A few years ago I have tried Fuchs Titan Syntopoid LS 75W-140 with the same result that led me to change to Castrol again.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

Youse guys are arguing apples and elephants: the 1-2 shift on the 4 speed box is NOTHING like the 1-2 shift in the 5 speed box!! Shocked
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

Examples of apples and elephants:

1) low miles .vs. high miles trans
2) clean .vs. contaminated lubricant
3) low temp .vs. running temp
4) 300 millisecond .vs. 900 millisecond shift
5) 3000 RPM shift .vs. 3500 RPM shift
6) 1st-2nd or 3rd-4th
7) Good clutch .vs. dragging clutch
8 ) Good pilot bearing .vs. dragging pilot bearing
9) Oil brand A .vs. oil brand B
10) Oil viscosity A .vs. viscosity B
11) Oil price A .vs. oil price B
12) Oil profit margin A .vs. Oil profit margin B
13) Oil advertising budget A .vs. advertising budget B
14) bedded in synchronizer ring vs new synchronizer ring (or mojo ring)
15) GL4 and GL5 (and all the variations/additives within those specs)
16) skilled trans operator .vs. unskilled transmission operator
17) 4 speed .vs. 5 speed
18 ) Shift mechanism condition and adjustment

Gear oil notions based on internet descriptions can run pretty wild.
My trans could shift real good or real bad, I'm reserving opinion until I get a chance to compare it directly to another van. That with ME shifting it.

Knowing an oil brand, but NOT knowing the other van's apples .vs. elephants, what do I have?

I think there are a lot of details (success and failure) that are attributed to "oil brands".
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
every one i have done has shifted perfect out of the gate. there are reasons people send me stuff from all over the US and Canada


Good to know. So when my trans gets a rebuild I'll install it and drive up to you. You can adjust it to perfection.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

4Gears4Tires wrote:
skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
every one i have done has shifted perfect out of the gate. there are reasons people send me stuff from all over the US and Canada


Good to know. So when my trans gets a rebuild I'll install it and drive up to you. You can adjust it to perfection.


I would like to run across some well-recommended expert, who's offering a "shifting-adjuster service or evaluation" at a SyncroFest or other Van gathering.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Rancho Syncro gearbox rebuild 1st / 2nd engagement challenging Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
4Gears4Tires wrote:
skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
every one i have done has shifted perfect out of the gate. there are reasons people send me stuff from all over the US and Canada


Good to know. So when my trans gets a rebuild I'll install it and drive up to you. You can adjust it to perfection.


I would like to run across some well-recommended expert, who's offering a "shifting-adjuster service or evaluation" at a SyncroFest or other Van gathering.
That would be fantastic!
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