High-Poptop Long Term Project.

[10degnorth]

Hello, some of you may know me, I've been around the forum for a couple years now. My aim is for this post to serve as an introduction to my project and may be a little bit long winded. Since I first saw images of the Carthago and Reimo high-poptops I was fascinated and knew that I eventually had to have one. Now, they aren't exactly the most common option, if memory serves there is somewhere between 25 and 30 of them total (I think I read that production number somewhere). I know of a couple shops that are wanting to produce a kit or a top of their own that has a similar goal, these include RMW ( https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=748227&highlight= ) and some small whisperings of an electric lift top at a shop in Bend, Or (I'm not sure they want me to go into details yet so I may add more on this later).

Now, I have always been the creative and DIY type. I bought my, then tin top, westfauxlia when I was a sophomore in high school and have been fixing it up for the last couple of years. I am currently going to college for product design and I am looking to take on a little bit of a long term personal project.

I would like to design and construct a fiberglass high-poptop from scratch. At this point in time a kit is not my goal, it would be a one off unless there was substantial interest in producing a run of the tops.

Goals for top:
-Standing height when down.
-Sleeping area when up.
-Storage over cab.
-Readily available hinges.
-Aesthetic matching the vanagon platform.
-Gas lift struts.

Maybe's:
-Full roof cutout.

I drew up 12 different roof designs, just refining ideas and settled on this. I like that it looks like a shorter Joker top as I've always liked how the jokers looked.

Here's a height comparison to the currently available Reimo top.

I am thinking about what hinges I'd use and am not currently partial to any, Baywindow Westy hinges are readily available. I'd rather not use rare parts like Vanagon Westy hinges. I have seen some designs of DIY hinges that replicate the Vanagon Westy hinges and that is definitely an option.

I recently got the opportunity to look inside a van that had had the whole roof cut out and then reinforced with a hightop. I really enjoyed how much space there was in there. However, I am trying to decide if that is really worth the trouble if the top pops up.

Here's some pictures of that job.

The issue with that approach and a popping high top is that the support bar would just be in the middle of the space so I am thinking about moving it rearward. That brings up the issue of if the support bar would be adequate for strengthening the roof if it is too far back.

Here is what I am talking about.

I've been doing a lot of research on DIY car and boat building. They build plugs out of wood and foam and build fiberglass molds off of those. This top would be substantially simpler than a purpose built race car so building a plug and mold shouldn't be too bad.

I am very much looking for feedback and ideas that the community may have. Thanks!
_________________
1984 Wolfsburg Vanagon (Current Project): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=773912&highlight=

1988 Microsquirted, Wolfsburg Vanagon (Sold): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=708000&highlight=

Microsquirt Conversion Guide (Work now Discontinued): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1laXykNPbRYS8MT...2imqd2pnx7

[pjn_wyo]

Were you able to salvage the Remio top you were working on fixing?

For an initial proof of concept you could cut that one in to two pieces and work on your hinge mechanism and lift struts and then iterate from there (including making your own top when you are happy with how things open and close)

I don't think it is worth the structural reinforcement and reengineering needed to cut out the roof forward of the b panel crossbar and rearward of the c panel crossbar. I would stick to something like the folding upper westy bunk or sliding adventurewagen bunk. The storage space in a high top is one of the best things about it and you loose that without the front a rear roof.

[10degnorth]

[10degnorth]

Stumbled across this raised bed concept. A full roof cutout with a bed platform like this would be interesting, allowing you to have either lots of headroom of a sleeping/storage area.

_________________
1984 Wolfsburg Vanagon (Current Project): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=773912&highlight=

1988 Microsquirted, Wolfsburg Vanagon (Sold): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=708000&highlight=

Microsquirt Conversion Guide (Work now Discontinued): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1laXykNPbRYS8MT...2imqd2pnx7

[10degnorth]

I am learning to use Fusion 360 for modelling and have whipped up this model for the top. I'm pretty new to this so it's far from perfect, but I feel like it communicates the idea better. Any thoughts on proportions and general aesthetics?

_________________
1984 Wolfsburg Vanagon (Current Project): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=773912&highlight=

1988 Microsquirted, Wolfsburg Vanagon (Sold): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=708000&highlight=

Microsquirt Conversion Guide (Work now Discontinued): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1laXykNPbRYS8MT...2imqd2pnx7

[DuncanS]

I highly applaud your thoughts and plans. I have been a long time boatbuilder both in wood and fiberglass and would like to pass some thoughts on to you for your consideration.

Although the Reimo and many other high tops are pretty flexible, they don't need to be and can be lightweight as well. The easiest way to do this is to add a core to the material the top is made of. Essentially, a fiberglass sandwich with either a foam or balsa wood core will separate the two skins and create a very rigid structure. By having two thin layers of fiberglass, it may even be lighter in weight than an uncored thicker layup. The added advantage with this type of construction is you wind up with insulation which will reduce condensation during cold weather use or even eliminate it. Wiring can be buried in the core to create a really clean interior. Another advantage to rigidity would be the ability to eliminate the H bar the Westy's have. A single strut forward with X bracing made of HDMW line will give you a stable top in the up position which won't wobble in the wind. Dyneema in 1/8" diameter can not be broken and is light, flexible and inexpensive.

Epoxy is easy to work with and a single layer over each side of foam will give you the stiffness you want. Either foam or balsa is available from boat builder's supply houses that are designed to conform to compound curves, so any shape you want is possible. A prototype made of lumber yard urethane sheet insulation can be easily fabricated using a hot glue gun to hold the pieces in position while your are trying all this. If possible with the space you have available, I suggest you get a junked T3 and cut the top off and mount it on sawhorses so you have a convenient height for working and experimentation. Once the prototype is stuck together, you can spray foam the corners to fill in any gaps. With a high speed angle grinder--Harbor freight 10k rpm for $19.95 with a 50 grit sanding disc--the foam can easily be rounded. Epoxy that can be dispensed with pumps makes getting the ratios correct easy and clean. This prototype will also be useful in helping you develop the skill necessary for the final version.

I urge you to continue using pencils and scratch paper to develop your thinking. The problem with computers is they are seductive and can lead you to think what you have is perfect because the lines are so crisp and accurate. Pencils will allow you to develop many, many more ideas before you discover THE ONE. As an architect, I see this problem all the time. The right solution doesn't come easily. It takes lots of thinking, exploring and testing. I will bet that you will go through 15 of more designs until you are happy with the direction you want to go in.

Lastly, I don't see any reason for the intrusive reinforcement shown in the back of one of the photos you posted. I'm about to cut the entire roof out of my tin top and eliminate the C pillar crossmember. By welding in a piece of rectangular steel tubing, 1 x 3" and laying it flat, it should provide all the stiffness necessary. It would run from the B to D pillars.

Good luck and keep us abreast of your thoughts. A great project. Glad to see you don't want to settle for just the standard cookie cutter solution already out there.

Duncan

[4Gears4Tires]

[danfromsyr]

it will be heavier than you think it will be.
so be prepared not only to lift it but the structural needs of the lift & pivot points.

here's my brother's poptop hightop., though I don't have a pic of the top popped. but it's a modifed westy top so it'll just look like a westy canvas and such.

_________________

[djkeev]

With the rear engine platform, I see nothing to be gained by cutting out the entire top.
It isn't like a front engine unit where the entire rear floor is potential walking/standing space.

Cutting it away only creates additional reinforcement problems to solve and more work but with no real obvious benefit.

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[DuncanS]

Dave, you are right about opening the roof aft of the C pillar..........except for the feeling of what it will be like with all that open space. If there is a permanent platform for the bed, then the flat section will be helpful and the C pillar brace can be straight across. However, the picture of the folding platform that is hinged up and out of the way seems to add significantly to the sense of interior room, even it it doesn't really do anything. Of course, the cube is lost by doing that for storage of bedding and so on, but that is something the OP and others will have to decide for themselves.

I want to go all the way back to the AC and remove the C brace because I plan to have a plexiglass sun roof that goes from behind the B pillar all the way back and don't want the visual interruption of the cross member. For me it's a function of creating as much feeling of openness as possible. The section of plexiglass between the B and C pillars will be able to slide back as I really like being able to stand while loading the car with bulky items--A washing machine going to the dump, or awkward pieces of 5 x 5 baltic birch plywood?

Duncan

[DuncanS]

Responding here as I don't want to see this thread lost and if it's kept current, then maybe the OP will post his thoughts.

Weight--I wouldn't worry about this. The stock Westy unit weighs 80 pounds. If I couldn't build a composite unit for around 70 pounds, I should be shot. I built a 9 foot dinghy which weighs 60 pounds. ½" foam should be good enough separation between the two fiberglass skins to achieve the stiffness you want. !2 oz biaxial cloth, one layer each side would be my recommendation. Of course carbon will make it lighter, but at a significant cost increase. Vacuum bagging will also reduce the resin component and weight as compared to a open layup and cure.

I'm convinced that with a scissors lift hinges on the back and a couple of gas struts half way along opening it should be no problem and give you great foot room for the top bed. This is what I plan to do and have a pair of hinge down struts for the front corners that will securely clip into seats at the corners of the opening. Dyneema cross bracing front and back should keep it from flapping around in the breeze. No H bar.

Show us your latest sketches and thoughts.

Duncan

[10degnorth]

Thank you all for all the great advice and recommendations!

I am going to try and respond to most comments and I intend to update this thread whenever I make progress. The next couple months I will have to focus on the design since I can't do much full scale prototyping in a dorm room and my work space is 60 miles away. However, come summer I plan to start working on a larger scale.

[4Gears4Tires]

[owokie]

[10degnorth]

[MarkWard]

You need to fabricate a plug first, then lay up a mold, and then you’d lay up your part. Basically 3 tops to get one.

You have this top already. You could coat it with mold release and PVA and pull a mold of it. Then lay up at top and modify it for your proof of concept. You could likely sell tops from your mold to cover your costs. A local fiberglass shop could do the production of roofs as they sell.

In the mean time you work on your proof of concept, cutting trimming finishing etc. You could then do the final body work and utilize as a basic one off or pull another mold.

The other option would be to glue blocks of foam together and sculpt your new top. Then lay up cloth and finish the outer surface. You’d the scrape the foam out from under.

What you are thinking regardless is a ton plus of work for one person. I hate fiberglass work. I do it only when necessary.
_________________
☮️

[10degnorth]

[MarkWard]

These are some one off defroster ducts I made.

I sculped the duct from foam. Laid up glass. Once dry, I dug the foam out and trimmed the excess. These are considered on offs. If they were visible, I would have then needed to do the body work on the outside and sand and finish.

For a top, you really only need to finish the outside surface. The inside could be covered in insulation and headliner material.

More than one way to skin a cat.
_________________
☮️

[10degnorth]

[MarkWard]

You seem to have access to computer equipment that many of us don’t have. It would be possible to make a model out of foam. Then scan it and scale it up. The file could then be used to operate a CNC type machine that could shape
a giant block of foam. That could be done quickly. You’d have to do some searching to find businesses that could do that.

Those 2 ducts took a day start to finish. You can imagine the man hours that would go into sculpting an entire top.
_________________
☮️